@Rstnme

Give me a perception check.

You will need to beat the score below or it is an automatic loss.

10

So I know this is to determine the square that the Prophet is in, but I thought Marek subverted that since he pushed the enemy into that square, no? Maybe not.

There's this in the PHB on page 281: "Choose a square to attack, using whatever information you’ve gleaned so far about the target’s location."

Since I know he started in a square adjacent to me and I control the direction of the push, can't it be argued I've "gleaned" the correct square to target?

@Rstnme

You can only push him against the wall, so he will not move any square. You can know which square he is, but unless you use an area attack that information is useless. Remember he has a 5 feet room to be, so to know his exact location you need to beat a perception vs stealth check. This is from the revised rule.

Also your +1 damage only works for Encounter or Daily Powers. I have been deducting it, but I always forgot to mention this to you.

I didn't include the damage bonus in these rolls, coincidentally.

Where are these revised rules? I thought the -5 to attack covered the 5 feet of variance.

The revised rules only say that you just need to beat the check to know the exact square, not only the direction or with a +10 bonus. I admit that the rules are not so clear about this point, so I will use it this way. Close area and area attacks, you will not need to roll anything if you previously knew the square, but for other types of attack regardless of circumstances you need to beat a perception vs. stealth check to receive a -5 penalty to hit the target, or it is an automatic loss. This will work for the characters and the monsters.

Given that a goblin's stealth ability is inherently much higher than Marek's Perception ability, on top of the -5 to roll, it's likely at this level Marek would never be able to hit an invisible target with a ranged attack and he would be smart enough to know this. Can I change my target to the Sniper then?

He has 0 of stealth, so your excuse is deeply flawed. But I will let you change the target this time. Just don't expect me to be so lenient all the time. Just roll again for the goblin sharpshooter at OC thread.

Aren't all goblins stealthy?

My point is with the addition to the rules that players can't use basic basic ranged/melee attacks Marek's attack would've missed automatically. I/he wouldn't have bothered targeting the Prophet with a ranged attack in the first place if it was guaranteed to miss, in-character justifications be damned.

Since these are rules I can't find online and aren't in my books, I (the player) didn't know about them. I was OK with tagging a -5 to my attack roll, because with my Wisdom modifier it would've been a -1 and I might have been able to hit the target anyway given the low Reflexes of spellcasters. Since I'm learning it's an automatic miss AFTER the fact, I don't think it's unreasonable to ask that I be allowed to try and, you know, actually target a character I can statistically hit

I'll re-roll in the IC thread.

Ok I did go to see at D&D WIKI for the right answer, but I still don't know what I am doing wrong (or if I am doing right), but in both examples the creature moved. So I am starting to understand your reasoning. The problem is the rules don't specify the creature needs to move to require a check. In this case, the creature can or not move, but your character will not know since the creature it is now invisible. So my opinion is that the character will still need to make a check. The problem is because I cannot remove it from the battlefield, because other players can still see it. We as players know it cannot move, due to its move restriction, but the character doesn't know and this is my argument.

The rule is really not clear here.

So I have to use what I think is right, but it will be also good for us to reach an agreement in our games to use the same rule. I am a player at your campaign and it will be best if the rules are at least uniform. So what do you really think is the right option? (I am opening this question to the other players too)

PS: While we are trying to reach an agreement, I am moving the game.

I'll probably do it case-by-case, but I feel like the -5 to rolls is enough for the attack action.

For the selecting a square action, I imagine it's going to be case-by-case. In this instance, I would say because Marek was able to force the Prophet's last move action, and that move action was limited by the Prophet's position, and mere seconds had passed afterward (see Issyl's turn) that Marek had a good of enough of an idea to know where to aim his bolt. There's also in-game information that may not be communicated--like, talking is a free action, so Marek could've shouted that the goblin disappeared and Dairon could've pointed at him. The -5 to attack would still apply, but Marek would be able to guess the square off that alone.

I'm a softer DM than you though, so I don't mind having rules vary slightly from game-to-game.

In that you are right, I am more rules bound. And when I cannot find one, I create one and follow it.

You guys rules lawyer'in? 'Cause I love a good rules lawyer'in!

So we're talking about the striking of invisible creatures eh? Tricky what with them errata'ing the rules for both Stealth and striking a hidden foe after the release of PH2. FOr future reference it should work something like this;

Step 1 - Detecting a Hidden Foe
First step in fighting any hidden target is to determine if you know where it is. To do this you roll an Active Perception Check (a minor action) against the targets Stealth check. This will result in one of two things;
If you succeed you determine exactly what square the target is in *but* you still can't see them - move right on to Step 3.
If you fail the check you have no can't detect the target and will have to guess where they are - move on to Step 2.

Step 2 - Pick a Square to Attack
If you can't see the enemy you'll have to guess which square they are in. This is as simple as announcing a square. If you guess right and the target is in the square you picked you manage to land a blow - move on to Step 3. If you picked a square the target isn't in then your attack flat out misses - your attack fails and you continue with any other actions you have as normal. It is important to note that attacks with the 'Miss' attack effect *do not* trigger if they missed because of this step.

Step 3 - Making the Attack
Make your attack as normal. While you know what square the enemy is in you still can't see them and as such they benefit from superior concealment (that is to say you take a -5 penalty on attack rolls). If your attack is a burst or blast you do not take any penalty however.

Bare in mind that regardless of whether this attack hits or misses you *don't* break the enemies stealth - though it will need to regain superior concealment or total cover to remain hidden, as per the updated Stealth rules.

We already cleared that part. The problem is the perception vs stealth check needs to be made in every situation? I believe that yes (with very few exceptions), and rstnme doesn't believe so. The rules clearly doesn't address this problem properly, so I think this is a case where a DM must determine the outcome.

RAW? Yes. Even if you know exactly where the target is. Even if you've hit them the round before (and for whatever reason they remained hidden) their Stealth never actually breaks until they do something to break it on their turn (attacking you for example) or to upkeep it (moving to full cover/superior concealment).

So yeah assuming they are trying to maintain Stealth (or using another effect which prevents you from seeing them) you have to make that Perception check every time you try to hit them. I mean you can *choose* not to do it if you are sure you know what square they are in (such as when rstnme knocked it back into a square of his choosing) but that's just skipping a phase for expediences sake. As far as the game is concerned you just failed the Perception check and moved on.

I guess that was my point: the forced movement meant that, even if I failed the Perception check, I still knew what square he would be in, and still hit him given the -5 to attack role. The way it played out was like, because I failed my Perception check, I wasn't allowed to attack him. Basically a successful attack against the most powerful dude was taken away. This is particularly important to Marek since your enemies tend to be particularly vengeful, and if I'd bloodied the prophet that turn I'd get a +1 to all my defenses against the Prophet's attacks.

Made my turn assuming Xilvan's weapon is not a reach weapon. I'll change it if it is, because I couldn't find any info about it when rstnme asked the same question.

Also, those were some pretty depressing rolls. Reminds me of our first encounter

Yeah, the great thing about dailies is when you hit with them. The sucky thing about dailies is that you spend your most powerful spell and then whiff and it's just like saying PASS!

On the upside he still takes ongoing 5 fire damage. That's... better then nothing I guess?

So... Anyone going to let Garren in? Or perhaps bust the door down?