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 Post subject: Re: [Story] Reclamation
PostPosted: Sat Feb 08, 2014 5:01 pm 
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@ Keeper - Many thanks for the read!

Re: You're a planeswalker!?!? - Yeah, that seems to be a pretty clear consensus reaction. I just need to do a rewrite on that portion of the exchange.

Re: How little we know about the plane - It is very shallow to this point. I've been drip-feeding little bits of background as I needed them. Partly this is because (full disclosure) I'm still fleshing-out a lot of the aspects of the place, partly because I've been trying to leave myself (and other potential writers) some room for maneuver as Beryl and Astria have developed.

Like you said, up until this point, the plane has essentially just been a staging area. As the various machinations which have been alluded to up until now start to unfold, we'll learn more by necessity.

I did a brain dump on the plane for Ruwin, which I'd be happy to put up for wider consumption as well.

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 Post subject: Re: [Story] Reclamation
PostPosted: Sat Feb 08, 2014 7:43 pm 
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Perhaps part of the issue surrounding the reaction to Beryl's planeswalker status is because of the limited Magic-related information of the world you've given thus far. If we had had a lot of obvious connotations that mana is known and studies, that spellcasting is a staple of the world, and above all that planeswalkers were known, then the revelation would probably feel more natural.

As it is now, we've had a small potions shop with some admittedly non-magical potions, a sword-carrying brute, a high-ranking sorceress (who is assumed to be among the region's ruling class), and a former prodigy ascended to planeswalker status. That's not much to go on, and the possibility you have in this story to increase the depth of the world and show how Magic-al it is has not yet been taken, so we don't have the information to say this place should be aware of 'walkers when they are an unknown to so many other worlds.

Now, what you've revealed of the world thus far (and in this story) has been done rather well, but these are my observations and conclusions from what evidence I have gathered.

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 Post subject: Re: [Story] Reclamation
PostPosted: Sat Feb 08, 2014 9:21 pm 
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@ Lord Luna - And let's not forget the Grand Magistrate. Eww - what a cad!

In all seriousness (there's a first time for everything - we'll see how long I can keep it up), as you've noted, the expository worldbuilding has been very limited to this point.

Having had a little time for reflection, I think the planeswalker bit does still need a rewrite, independent of whether or not additional context would help it parse better. As written, it's not having the effect I was hoping it would. People have given me some good ideas to work with for a revision.

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 Post subject: Re: [Story] Reclamation
PostPosted: Sun Feb 09, 2014 1:51 pm 
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Oh, yeah, I forgot to say in my last post, but I've got a general thought on Fisco's hinted involvement/future involvement in this story arc.

While I think it makes perfect sense that Beryl would find Aloise if she was in trouble, making the connection to Fisco seems... a little too convenient. Now, I don't know what you have planned, but I just started wondering recently whether dipping into the M:EM's other 'walker pool might serve just as well (ignoring the part where I need to upload more of the Archives).

There is a strong possibility that Fisco has the ruling body under his thumb, because that would both explain why Astria knew about 'walkers and why Beryl would (inferring based on the information) have been attacked by Fisco or Fisco's minions; in which case go right ahead.

I only bring it up because Fisco has been the central figure of a number of stories already while many M:EM characters are lounging in obscurity :shifty:

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 Post subject: Re: [Story] Reclamation
PostPosted: Sun Feb 09, 2014 2:40 pm 
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@ Lord Luna - I think those are two great tastes which taste great together.

In addition to what Ruwin is up to, the good Barinellos has been feeding me some archive walkers for potential use going forward.

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 Post subject: Re: [Story] Reclamation
PostPosted: Sun Feb 09, 2014 11:46 pm 
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For those who had expressed an interest, here's my current brain dump on Beryl's home plane, Aliavelli:

The Aliavelli Board of Tourism Welcomes You!


World-building is decidedly not my long suit, for people should feel free to offer ideas or suggestions. I'm hoping that Aliavelli is a little different from the other places in the M:EM, since I don't want to just recreate something which has already been done better elsewhere.

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 Post subject: Re: [Story] Reclamation
PostPosted: Wed Feb 12, 2014 11:21 pm 
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Okay, been putting off on examining your world and offering pointed... points.
Going right in:
Spoiler

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 Post subject: Re: [Story] Reclamation
PostPosted: Wed Feb 12, 2014 11:52 pm 
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Barinellos wrote:
Okay, been putting off on examining your world and offering pointed... points.
Going right in:
Spoiler


Many thanks for the critique. As I said, thinking big is not my natural mode, so trying to conjure a whole plane was bound to be bumpy.

Hmm... it seems like a lot of the problems stem back to the desire to make the plane very small.

This was a top-down idea, because I liked the idea of having the plane be almost claustrophobic - you have to be careful about making enemies, and you have to cling to your family, because there's almost literally nowhere you can escape to. Everyone is trapped with each other and themselves.

But, as you noted, it raises some thorny economic questions (Who's mining all that gold? How do they have enough food? Etc.) which, as much as I wanted to just hand-wave them away, are pretty intractable.

I suspect the simplest and best solution is to just expand out the size. The plane becomes more normally sized, and is home to other city-states. They probably have formidable geographic barriers between them, which preserves some of the isolation which I want, without causing as many problems. Imagine kind of a bunch of little Switzerlands, if you will.

I don't expect I'll try to build out any of the other city-states, since I don't need them at present. They can follow along later if they become relevant.

Re: Magic as hereditary, I think the disparity of opportunity is the real causal factor here, like you noted. If you're in a House, you have all the chances to make good. If you're not from a House, you probably never get a shot. Or, if you actually get an opportunity to learn, and if you turn out to be really special stuff, you're likely to wind up married/adopted into a House. It becomes self-perpetuating. The "bloodlines" bit is just self-serving mythology on the part of the Houses.

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 Post subject: Re: [Story] Reclamation
PostPosted: Sat Feb 15, 2014 2:01 pm 
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Okay, I was finally able to get to this after my schedule cleaned itself up a bit, and I enjoyed it. I really like the interplay between the two sisters, as I mentioned with their first story. My only complaint on that front is that the conversation does become pretty cathartic, particularly for Beryl, pretty early. Of course, she's the one who's gone through a lot of stuff, so maybe that makes sense. I found myself expecting Beryl to simply leave after giving Astria the fire diamond, but again, I realize she has more motivation with the name thing.

I know it's been mentioned numerous times already, but the planeswalker thing is a problem. Now, I'm not sure it's a HUGE problem or anything, but one that needs to be addressed. Now, it seems to me that if anyone on a plane would know about planeswalkers, two daughters of a former High Sorceress would be pretty likely candidates, so I think the issue could probably be fixed with just a few sentences of history between 'walkers and the House Trevanei or the High Sorceress or something.

Just a note: I think I know what you were going for in the beginning by showing us a glimpse of poor Astria's life at court, but personally I still feel little to no sympathy for Astria. Even though logically I understand that her life is in danger and that her sister killed her mother, I basically feel like she deserves most of the trouble she gets and then some. I think part of the problem is the "control" you mention throughout. To me, there seems to be no human vulnerability there, and thus to me, she's just another schemer. As a reader, I'm really not invested in her success or failure the way I am with Beryl, if that makes sense.

That being said, I really enjoyed this piece, particularly the opening moments of her conversation with Beryl. I always like that 'waiting in the shadows' motif. Good stuff.


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 Post subject: Re: [Story] Reclamation
PostPosted: Sat Feb 15, 2014 11:27 pm 
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@ Raven - Many thanks for the read!

Re: Why does Beryl hang around? - I've wondered that myself. Beryl has an opportunity to make a clean break here. She's said her piece to her sister, and she's given back this bit of property which wasn't really hers. She could just leave right then. Besides nostalgia, there's really nothing left for her on this plane. She could wash her hands of the place, leave Astria to live with her own problems, and make a fresh start of it out in the multiverse. Along these lines, I don't think Astria's being facetious when she asks: "Why did you come back?" It's a good question.

I think that, as much as Beryl may like to believe that she has freed herself from the yoke of her own past, it still has a kind of siren's sway over her. She has been living in isolation for too long without being a part of anything larger than herself. There are two ways she could resolve that. She could strike out on her own, embrace the future, and try to make a new life for herself in a new community. Or she can try to untangle her own past, try to rebuild a posthumous connection to her family, try to win acceptance from a sister who genuinely appears to hate and fear her.

I think the former course of action would be smarter and healthier. But Beryl chooses the second path, and in doing so she tangles herself up in Astria's web of lies. I think she's being too sentimental for her own good. I also think that, while her self-image is undoubtedly much healthier than it used to be, she's still just insecure enough about her own worth that she's not sure she can succeed in building that new life, and therefore thinks that she has no choice other than to try to salvage what's left of her old life.

It may work out for her, but I suspect she may look back at this as a missed opportunity.

Re: The planeswalking bidniss - It's officially as unpopular as New Coke. I'll rewrite it when I do an updated version.

Re: Sympathy with the devil and/or Astria - It totally makes sense. She is not a nice person, and, as you note, the trouble she gets into is largely or entirely of her own making. She's ambitious, and she uses other people. I don't think she's a sociopath; I do think she is capable of empathy. But she certainly doesn't trouble herself with too much of it.

I do feel a little sympathy for her, because I think that she could have turned out better than she did, but I don't blame anyone who doesn't feel sympathy for her, and I'm not sure I share Beryl's belief that she's redeemable. I think she's been underwater for too long, and that, to the extent that Beryl feels compelled to offer her a hand, Astria is more likely to try to pull Beryl under with her than she is to try to pull herself out.

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 Post subject: Re: [Story] Reclamation
PostPosted: Sun Feb 16, 2014 11:17 am 
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New Coke? You mean it was always your plan to make people dislike that part so we all accept whatever plans you have for the rewrite? ;)


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 Post subject: Re: [Story] Reclamation
PostPosted: Sun Feb 16, 2014 5:06 pm 
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New Coke? You mean it was always your plan to make people dislike that part so we all accept whatever plans you have for the rewrite? ;)


Mental note: Keeper knows too much...

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 Post subject: Re: [Story] Reclamation
PostPosted: Wed May 21, 2014 1:27 pm 
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Oh, hello!

David Bowie once sang: "Do you remember a guy that's been / in such an early song?"

If I was trying to imitate the Thin White Duke (which, mercifully, I am not - you can all thank me later), I might change the line to read: "Do you remember a girl that's been / in such an early story?"

Well, several helpful people around these parts did remember (special thanks to Ruwin and Barinellos), and I finally got off my lazy tush and did the revisions to "Reclamation" which I meant to do, oh, I don't know, something like three months ago.

Anyway, I've included the updated version of the story below. Here's a quick summary of the changes I made, typo fixes and such aside.

Big Change:
- Rewrote the scene in which Astria discovers Beryl is a planeswalker. Thanks to literally everyone who gave feedback and pointed out the issues here. Astria's reaction should now be more appropriate, and there's a little extra foreshadowing sprinkled in for REDACTED REDACTED REDACTED.

Minor Changes:
- Made a few small tweaks to word choice, mostly in response to Barinellos's suggestions.
- Made a couple references to mana when Astria is spellcasting, again per the good Barin.
- Dropped a quick reference to House Dentevi into the opening, per Keeper's suggestion.
- Made one or two very small changes to Beryl's demeanor during the opening stages of the conversation, to try to offer just a tiny glimpse into her mental state, per multiple comments.
- Made a change to the nature of Astria's strongbox, in order to lay the groundwork for REDACTED REDACTED REDACTED.

Anyway, thanks yet again to everyone who provided feedback on the original draft. All the comments which people provided were very useful. Even though some of them did not get incorporated into this story, they've been very helpful as I ponder future events. (Raven, I'm looking at you here in particular.)

For anyone re-reading this story or reading it for the first time, I hope you enjoy it, and I'm always delighted to hear any reactions you have.

Cheers,
-OL

Reclamation (Revised)

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 Post subject: Re: [Story] Reclamation
PostPosted: Wed May 21, 2014 3:52 pm 
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It's been long enough that I barely remember reading this, so it should be like a new experience anyway. But I'll have to put it toward the bottom of my list after finishing off some other things around here. I think I've been doing rather well, actually; I've only read about 20K words of not-M:EM stuff since re-materializing early last month.

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 Post subject: Re: [Story] Reclamation
PostPosted: Wed May 21, 2014 4:13 pm 
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It's been long enough that I barely remember reading this, so it should be like a new experience anyway. But I'll have to put it toward the bottom of my list after finishing off some other things around here. I think I've been doing rather well, actually; I've only read about 20K words of not-M:EM stuff since re-materializing early last month.


No worries, good sir. I know the new material is stacking up like wood at the moment, and other people ought to get their first bite at the apple before I take my second.

Mixed metaphors! Bam!

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 Post subject: Re: [Story] Reclamation
PostPosted: Wed May 21, 2014 5:57 pm 
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Okay, I've read over this new version without having reread the original, so I can't speak too much to the differences between the two, but it would seem that most of what had concerned me has been addressed. I'm still liking the interaction of the sisters, although I certainly find myself wishing poor Beryl would just cut her losses and be done with Astria. Oh, well, to each their own. But I don't think any of the changes were for the worse, certainly, going off of memory. I still like it.


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 Post subject: Re: [Story] Reclamation
PostPosted: Wed May 21, 2014 9:32 pm 
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@ Raven - Thanks for the feedback. I'm certainly not expecting anyone to have the first version committed to memory, or to do a line-by-line comp, or anything like that. So as long as the revised copy reads okay, that's a win in my book.

And that exact question/concern you have about Beryl has loomed very large in my thinking of late, so you are not alone in suspecting that cutting ties might be the smarter move.

I think it was Kahneman and Tversky who coined the phrase "gambling for resurrection" to describe taking increasingly long risks in an effort to recoup past losses. That's a phrase which pops into my mind sometimes when I think about Beryl and Astria.

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 Post subject: Re: [Story] Reclamation
PostPosted: Wed May 21, 2014 9:36 pm 
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Well, no one ever suggested that the spark confers wisdom. Beryl will have to make her own mistakes. Maybe they'll pan out for her, maybe they won't. There's only one way to find out. Stay tuned, ladies and gentlemen! :takei:


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 Post subject: Re: [Story] Reclamation
PostPosted: Wed May 21, 2014 9:59 pm 
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Indeed.

Mrs. OL and I caught up on Fargo tonight (which, ohmygorsh, is better than I had ever dared to hope), and there was a little exchange between Gus and Molly which just seemed so topical to this that it gave me a little shiver.

(Spoiler-safe)

Gus: When a dog goes rabid, there’s no mistaking it for a normal dog. Us people, we’re supposed to know better, be better.
Molly: Must be hard to live in this world if you believe that.
Gus: You have no idea.

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 Post subject: Re: [Story] Reclamation
PostPosted: Thu May 22, 2014 9:52 pm 
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Yeah, overall, I'd say this reads a lot smoother in the places where it needed to.
And of course, you know I'm looking forward to stuff coming up.

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At twilight's end, the shadow's crossed / a new world birthed, the elder lost.
Yet on the morn we wake to find / that mem'ry left so far behind.
To deafened ears we ask, unseen / "Which is life and which the dream?"


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