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PostPosted: Tue May 20, 2014 2:54 pm 
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Zherog wrote:
The game is a little bit different, maybe, if we lynch TB instead of mod kill. If the lynch happens we go into night 3-3. Especially knowing there would've been two doctors alive, the odds of a night kill would've been low. Maybe that means D4 plays out just like D3 did after the mod kill. *shrug*
The only thing that would have been different is if you would have shot HW or rstnme, the game would have been over outright instead of going to D4. If we protected against the NK, D4 would have been the exact same as it was.

The only chance town had for the three of us to place our vote on the same person all before the third one of you was able to vote for rstnme. And since you guys could coordinate and we couldn't, it was pretty much set in stone after TB died.


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PostPosted: Tue May 20, 2014 3:08 pm 
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As an aside, I was going to unvote TB and target whomever I thought was bandwagoning him... which TOTALLY backfired, because, while I was correct in anticipating a bandwagon, I didn't think I would be the one GETTING bandwagoned.

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PostPosted: Tue May 20, 2014 4:08 pm 
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Yeah, I smelled trap. But we only needed to get two of us onto the wagon for the lynch to happen, and I'm on most of the day - which was why I was the "hammer," just waiting for another Black Hat to vote.

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PostPosted: Tue May 20, 2014 4:14 pm 
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Zherog wrote:
Yeah, I smelled trap. But we only needed to get two of us onto the wagon for the lynch to happen, and I'm on most of the day - which was why I was the "hammer," just waiting for another Black Hat to vote.
Nah, you needed all three not just two of you. I voted seeker and there was an 11 minute window where if somehow rstnme and HW jumped in and voted him along with me before you came and voted rstnme, we would have gotten the lynch.


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PostPosted: Tue May 20, 2014 4:36 pm 
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Arioch wrote:
Pretty interesting concept, though I feel there were certainly some balance issues.

The fact that the game could have ended on the first lynch seems bad. I don't know off the top of my head to change that, but that would have been no fun for anyone in the game or you had it happened. Possibly if he gets lynched someone else takes over.

I think 4 mafia support is way way too many. That's 4 people on Night 1 that had a chance to find mafia, and after 1 connects, the chances of the rest finding the mafia is exponentially larger. Not to mention, the support can't even win with town so on D1 we literally had 5 out of 11 players as anti-town. Still slightly better odds of a towny getting lynched and then a town gets shot at Night, and even without a connection, you are at 5 v 4 in favor of mafia on D2 and town doesn't even have any info gathering roles. Call me old fashioned, but that seems horribly imbalanced. And on top of that, giving them the Brute to add even more power

In an 11 player game, Day 3 was pretty late to get power roles. If we make it to Day 3, the chances that the two retired roles are still around and survive N3 is not very good, and the chance that a N4 would happen and one of them would still be around and live through the Night would be even lower. I think if you wanted to limit town, a 1-shot Dr and/or cop would have been better. It lowers their power level, but lets them have a chance to use their ability instead of being forced to wait until the late game.

Granted, someone connecting N1 and Team Mafia never shooting a support definitely was the perfect scenario for them and the worst possible scenario for town. We didn't get a lucky mafia hit at Night and we didn't get a Dr. save, which certainly hurt. We also didn't get a mafia that guessed wrong and outed themselves. Did seeker, TB, and Garren ALL target Jay N1? Or did our townies just not share the info that they knew who a mafia was?

I was wary of Fel since D1 when it was very apparent that he was trying to be agreeable and after Day 2 when both of his votes were very clearly bandwagoning without any real insight, but lucky for him a lot of other people were doing a good job of looking even scummier, which I guess with 5 scum in the game isn't that much of a surprise.

HW I read you as scum for some interactions with seeker, who I also read as scum, and because you were a lot less questioning and seemingly more calm and collected than usual.

rstnme I was certain was town after our back and forth towards the end of D2 which I stated in the thread. I thought for sure he was going to be the NK that Night, but maybe scum didn't pick up on that?

During the early parts of D2 I was also pretty certain that Eli was town, which maybe mafia picked up on and that's why they took him out N2. That really hurt because he was one of my strongest reads, so good choice for the kill there.

Despite some potential design issues, it was a pretty fun game up until the last Day when it should have just been called over. This game was a good example of why I don't like non-majority lynches as well. We lost Neo D1 with only 3 votes which is really bad, and the game should have been over with a mafia win D4 instead of them needing to get their votes in first. Having to rely on timing to win, especially when some people live in other countries seems wrong to me.


In response to this, I didn't think about that until Day Two, and then I was like... oh crap. Killing someone preventing them from joining team mafia is far less helpful than I initially imagined it to be.
As you noted, the mafia had one of the more ideal scenarios, with two finds right off the bat and no mistaken NK.

I was balancing the game as if fel would be alone the first night; One mafia lynch, and one mistaken mafia NK (it would've made the game go to at least day four). Which then makes the game more balanced for a town persepctive, I wasn't expecting what happened at all. As such, I think it was the Brute role that ultimately won them the game, because (IIRC) seeker was a bit wary of asking Zherog, but was relying on his silencing aspect to just barrel through in the worst case scenario.

On top of that, TB needing replacing was awkward. It happen at one of the least ideal times. Mafia keeps claiming that mod killing TB was in their best interest, when actually lynching him would have been.

TB being modkilled gave town a chance (a slim chance) to lynch mafia.
If TB had been lynched, the same amount of people would have existed during the night phase, and the NK of any player would have sealed the deal.

In hindsight, from what I see, I would have taken away the brute role (I still would have kept that number of mafia I think), but I would have made the doctor start night one, the cop start night two (I would almost lean towards night one in hindsight) and the spare doctor start night three. again, the only reason I started teh cop at night 3 was because I was expecting the game to last at least until day four, and at that, there was a larger chance of hitting mafia. Though, I cold definitely see an argument for starting with the cop night one as well.

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PostPosted: Tue May 20, 2014 4:46 pm 
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So who were the support targets? Did they all either target mafia right away or target the person that died in the Night? I'm surprised we never had a towny that knew of a mafia due to a missed contact.


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PostPosted: Tue May 20, 2014 5:12 pm 
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There were only two targets.

Zherog targeting fel. (late night one)
and Seeker target Zherog. (early night two)

Everyone else waited.

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PostPosted: Tue May 20, 2014 5:15 pm 
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Ahhh, that makes sense.


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PostPosted: Tue May 20, 2014 5:46 pm 
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GG everyone! That was super fun for my first pbp mafia game!

MVP goes to Zherog for pulling Team Mafia together: his intuition led him (somehow) to Fel night one, and he managed to make himself the perfect target for my brute role night 2 by being a strong poster who felt slightly... off.

In actuality, I don't know if the brute role made a difference. It perhaps did give me the boldness to contact Zherog where the other mafia support stayed silent ...

And if we had managed to lynch TB day 3 as planned (and we had a specific time set) then going into night 3 3v3 was an auto-win for mafia, thanks to the Brute role.

So, yeah, there were perhaps some balance issues, but Team Mafia also got darn lucky with how the first 2 days played out.

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PostPosted: Tue May 20, 2014 7:20 pm 
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As for me, I played the first 2 days like an honest townie. I figured since I needed to find mafia, I may as well scumhunt and do my best to be just like any other townie. My inactivity may have made me seem questionable, but I think I did a decent job of coming off as townish. Day one and 2, all my posts and reads are 100% my honest read on the game. After joining Team Mafia, well, that changed things.

Numbers, while I admired your boldness, I really think you did mafia a service by making your claim. At least it made day one interesting. I considered contacting you night one, but instead passed to observe more, especially to observe Big Z.

Neo, I was sad to see you lynched day one. I enjoyed reading your play in the previous mafia game and was looking forward to fighting with you here. Still wondering how that lynch came about...

Garren, I didn't suspect you until the very end of day 2, when you kinda went off the hinge. Nice try.

Eli, you were coming along pretty strong for town day 2, that was why I wanted to NK you before you had a chance to dig any deeper into the truth.

TB, sorry to see you go, but everything put together made you seem super scummy to me. I was really hoping my previous arguments against you would give me some credit with Soup, but things worked out very dikfferently than anticipated, especially with me joining Team Mafia.

Rstnme and Ari, you two seemed like twins. Great job leading town conversation. Together with Zherog, you 3 really helped me see what was going on and how to formulate my own voting criteria. Z just seemed different enough from the two of you (in the attitude / mood of his posts) that he stood out as questionable to me. Thanks for that fellas!

HW, you really did a 180 on me. You wereg my scummiest read day one, and I considered contacting you that night. Glad I waited, because you became more townish as the game progressed. Nice job.

Fel, I didn't suspect you at all. Great job staying under the radar. I still wonder what ith was that drew Zherog to you that night...

Zherog, as I said before, gets my vote for MVP. Great job!

And Altimis, thanks again for hosting this and ford keeping us inline. I enjoyed the flavor you added to Old Port. It kind of made me want to post "in character" or something, but then, I guess it was hard enough to stayg active with regular posting...

Overall, it was a blast! Definitely look forward to lynching you all again soon!

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PostPosted: Tue May 20, 2014 9:03 pm 
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Arioch wrote:
Zherog wrote:
Yeah, I smelled trap. But we only needed to get two of us onto the wagon for the lynch to happen, and I'm on most of the day - which was why I was the "hammer," just waiting for another Black Hat to vote.
Nah, you needed all three not just two of you. I voted seeker and there was an 11 minute window where if somehow rstnme and HW jumped in and voted him along with me before you came and voted rstnme, we would have gotten the lynch.


No, I'm talking about the start of Day 3 - which maybe means I'm talking about a different spot in the game from you.

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PostPosted: Tue May 20, 2014 9:09 pm 
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Fel, I didn't suspect you at all. Great job staying under the radar. I still wonder what ith was that drew Zherog to you that night...


I still don't know, other than I just knew. I figured if I was wrong and Fel started blabbing in thread, I had earned enough good will over him from the first day to go ahead and try to argue my way out of it, and would've claimed as cop if I had to. I was going to wait one more night, but I figured you only get that sort of thing once, so why not go for it and have some fun with the game.

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PostPosted: Thu May 22, 2014 3:49 pm 
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The game already ended. I feel I left it just yesterday. I am sorry if my lack of time hindered it in any way, but it was unexpected.

If I knew that there were so many mafia I would have tried a communication earlier, I was imagining there were only 2 mafia players and me, that was a stunted mafia. So my idea for the game was to draw attention to me and let them work in peace, and only try a contact Night 3 (if I survived) when a new mafioso would be more necessary to close the game. And try not to be killed by mafia making on purpose bad plays.

My top suspect since the beginning was Zherog. It would be him that I would contact, then Garren, and then Rstnme. I never suspected felbatista was mafia.


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PostPosted: Thu May 22, 2014 3:56 pm 
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Life happens. Don't sweat it.

That's an interesting way to play it out, actually. I made the decision during N1 that I was going to contact somebody, because I figured I'd probably never see a role like that again. As I said, I figured if I was wrong I'd claim cop. So it seems you and I attacked the support role from completely opposites ends - you opted to lay low while I opted to take a shot at it N1.

I do find it interesting so many thought I was a Black Hat, because I don't think I did anything different from past games.

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PostPosted: Thu May 22, 2014 3:58 pm 
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PostPosted: Thu May 22, 2014 4:00 pm 
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Zherog wrote:
Life happens. Don't sweat it.

That's an interesting way to play it out, actually. I made the decision during N1 that I was going to contact somebody, because I figured I'd probably never see a role like that again. As I said, I figured if I was wrong I'd claim cop. So it seems you and I attacked the support role from completely opposites ends - you opted to lay low while I opted to take a shot at it N1.

I do find it interesting so many thought I was a Black Hat, because I don't think I did anything different from past games.
You were going to claim cop with Jay's retired cop claim? I can guarantee you wouldn't have finished this game alive if so.


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PostPosted: Thu May 22, 2014 4:26 pm 
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What is a Black Hat role?

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Arioch wrote:
Zherog wrote:
Life happens. Don't sweat it.

That's an interesting way to play it out, actually. I made the decision during N1 that I was going to contact somebody, because I figured I'd probably never see a role like that again. As I said, I figured if I was wrong I'd claim cop. So it seems you and I attacked the support role from completely opposites ends - you opted to lay low while I opted to take a shot at it N1.

I do find it interesting so many thought I was a Black Hat, because I don't think I did anything different from past games.
You were going to claim cop with Jay's retired cop claim? I can guarantee you wouldn't have finished this game alive if so.


Except Jay didn't claim retired cop. He claimed a role that didn't kick in until N3, but never said what it was.

Even with that, I very likely wouldn't have survived anyway. The best way to test my claim would've been to lynch me (remember this would've been D2). If I got lucky, I figured I might've been able to talk my way into surviving until D3, but probably not. But I was OK with the risk. Even in that worst-case scenario, that means I get lynched instead of "real" Black Hats, which would've helped them survive longer. (Remember that support didn't know how many mafia or other support there were, either.)

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PostPosted: Thu May 22, 2014 4:31 pm 
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That's not necessarily true. With the drawback I claimed, there was plenty of room for a second cop variant in this game from a standard setup perspective. Mafia being in the know of when LyLo truly was, a believable claim could have carried Z to the end of the game simply by playing upon the already dead support roles pushing off the need to lynch him until later on, but before where LyLo would be perceived to be. It's quite the gamble, but I'd say it has a decent shot of success.

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PostPosted: Thu May 22, 2014 4:39 pm 
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@Z - Ah yeah, I forgot he didn't actually claim the role up front, but he died N1 so I suspect you wouldn't have claimed cop after his flip. Also, planning to claim cop on D2 is ballsy without knowing if an actual cop exists. I like the moxy though.

@Jay - True, if he claimed a weakened variant and not straight up cop.


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PostPosted: Thu May 22, 2014 5:45 pm 
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So, I guess, keep this in mind:

My "I would've claimed cop" statement only happens if the person I opted to contact wasn't mafia and then came onto the thread during D2 and proclaimed, "ZOMG!!!1!!1!!one!!! Z contacted me during the night to ask me if I was mafia, yo!" Because I figured if that happened my choices were:

  1. Say the person was lying
  2. claim cop, and say the person came up town

Best case scenario is what happened - I find mafia. Next-best would've been finding another support; then the two of us could've talked during the night phase to figure out what to do next. Next best case is a contact a townie, but that person doesn't say anything for some reason. Worst case scenario would've been I contacted a townie and that person mentioned the contact during D2. That was the only case where I would've tried to obfuscate by claiming cop. Because then the worst that happens - I believe - is I get lynched, which means mafia would've had a one-day reprieve from everybody else trying to find them.

I needed mafia to win for me to win. And I decided I was going to try and get onto Team Black Hat starting on N1, rather than sitting back. (Again, because I'd pobably never have that sort of role ever again, so have fun with it, right?) Given that win condition, and that game play decision, I figured at the time my best defense in case of a bad N1 decision was lying my ass off about being cop. *shrug*

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