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PostPosted: Fri May 16, 2014 10:20 pm 
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LilyStorm wrote:
A plane that no longer moves. One side is completely frozen and the other is a hellish wasteland where the sun never sets.

TPzombieW wrote:
Card Type Matters (not subtype, I'm talking the stuff Tarmogoyf cares about)

Mown wrote:
Enchantments vs Artifacts / Religion vs Technology
Diversity vs Quantity
Instant/Sorceries vs Permanents / Short term vs Long term
Etb vs Ltb
In play vs In other zones
Constructive vs Destructive (Untap/Tap, Search/Destroy, Life = #/Damage = #)

Shazzeh wrote:
I think a majority of the set shouldn't encourage people to go for every card type at once. A couple "domain"-like cards (like from the mastery proposal) at higher rarities is fine, but I don't think it's interesting at all as a major theme--players play with a mix of card types in every environment, so in the end the "card types matter" theme ends up just being "make sure you have a couple artifacts and enchantments." I think the far more interesting and unique direction to take is allowing/encouraging players to focus on one or two card types.

Think about Lorwyn--it doesn't achieve the tribal (i.e. "creature type matters") theme by encouraging people to use a mix of every kind of creature, it does it by dividing the creature types into a few overlapping subsets with unique identities and playstyles. It also doesn't do it by being solely a "treefolk matter" set--obviously it's different when our factions aren't just different kinds of creatures, but I think a pluralistic theme is perfectly viable.

Also keep in mind that a deck doesn't need to consist entirely of a single card type for that card type to "matter," and that not being focused on creatures doesn't mean creatures can't make an appearance. There are artifact creatures, (probably) enchantment creatures, tokens, and permanents that turn into creatures even if they aren't generally of that type. There are supporting creatures like Frostblight Scavenger and many more to come. There can be creatures that are meant for combat, but still depend on other card types, like Kiln Fiend or whatever. Or someone could draft a strong "instants matter" deck with removal and counterspells and recursion and just run a couple unrelated creatures for win conditions. I count all of those as victories for the set theme.

Anyway, from my perspective, we're not looking for a keyword that tells everyone to play every card type. And making a separate keyword for each of five or six card types is probably ridiculous. I think our best bet is something parametric like kinship that could go with a number of different card types.

This is the hub thread for Starstill. This is the place for points of interest beyond the individual cards themselves, such as set themes, any concerns about how I'm running the project, and any other issues regarding Starstill as a whole.

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Last edited by ParadOxymoron on Sun Jun 08, 2014 7:56 pm, edited 12 times in total.

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PostPosted: Fri May 16, 2014 10:29 pm 
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Mown wrote:
While it was sort of the point of the criteria, we should probably discuss how to differentiate the two/three environments (because your cards aren't telling me).
Enchantments vs Artifacts / Religion vs Technology
Diversity vs Quantity
Instant/Sorceries vs Permanents / Short term vs Long term
Etb vs Ltb
In play vs In other zones
Constructive vs Destructive (Untap/Tap, Search/Destroy, Life = #/Damage = #)

altimis wrote:
Sunny side: Illpyre
Frozen side: Frostwynd

LilyStorm wrote:
Both sides are probably pretty bad. There should be nomads all over each side, as well as people that hate it on their side and make the long journey to visit the other. I like the short term vs long term idea. On the hot side things would rarely last long, and on the cold side things would tend to slow down and stagnate.

Cato wrote:
I think enchantment creatures are necessary if you want a "type matters" theme to actually work in limited.

I think enchantment dudes should be r/b. Thus white should be enchantment hate/artifact.

Shazzeh wrote:
Does anyone else think it's weird that red loves sorceries and blue loves instants most of the time? Like, counterspells and trickery, I guess, but it seems out of character for red to be the color of slow, deliberate spells.

I'm starting to think Snow shouldn't be supported in this set since it's not a card type.
Thoughts?

altimis wrote:
Just thinking out loud here, would we want to push equipment/auras on both sides. A way for citizens to cope with the unnatural weather?

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PostPosted: Fri May 16, 2014 10:43 pm 
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Current round closes on Saturday at noon. Then the voting will commence. Get your submissions in!

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PostPosted: Fri May 16, 2014 11:02 pm 
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Cato's point is probably worth thinking about in general. I'm not specifically gunning for enchantment creatures, but we have 5-6 factions: artifact, creature, enchantment, instant, and sorcery at the very least, and maybe lands? It's going to be a challenge making enough of each faction to make each card type feel like it really matters, because we already know like half the set is going to be creatures (because every set is).

Again, I'm not much for just making random creatures into enchantment creatures--Theros did it recently, and honestly, we can do better. But I think we should be planning to make some sort of overlap between the various factions, or some other way to boost the amount of support for each of them. The relic thing is a really good example of this: any random instant that makes a relic is suddenly useful for two factions instead of just one.

Just something to think about.


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PostPosted: Fri May 16, 2014 11:10 pm 
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Shazzeh wrote:
We have 5-6 factions: artifact, creature, enchantment, instant, and sorcery at the very least, and maybe lands?

Green/White/Blue: Sorceries
White/Blue/Black: Artifacts
Blue/Black/Red: Instants
Black/Red/Green: Creatures
Red/Green/White: Enchantments

In other words:

White: Sorceries, Artifacts, and Enchantments
Blue: Artifacts, Instants, and Sorceries
Black: Instants, Creatures, and Artifacts
Red: Creatures, Enchantments, and Instants
Green: Enchantments, Sorceries, and Creatures

Just a thought.

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PostPosted: Fri May 16, 2014 11:16 pm 
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I like the slow/fast contrast between the frozen and scorchng sides of the plane, that's neat.

What's the middle area like, the terminator, like? We have to address it somehow. Is it a verdant paradise for everyone to fight over, or do the weather effects turn it into a hellish wasteland combining the worst of both worlds? Maybe a change in thenature/location of the terminator could play a part in the story?

This is how I envision the realtionship each colour has with the cad types:
White - Loves all types. Rewards playing a large variety of types. Lots of "for each card type" effects. If it has to choose a favourite, it's enchantments. Prefers its creatures in large numbers.
Blue - Loves artifacts and instants. Neutral on everything else, but kind of hoses on creatures.
Black - Black's the tricky one. Maro says that black is the #3 artifact colour behind white and blue, but I say we give it to red. Black likes creatures, enchantments and sorceries equally. Doesn't buy into the card type theme as much as the other colours. For this block black gets the biggest share of hings not related to the set's main theme.
Red - Likes sorceries (and instants) and artifacts. Resorts to polymorph type effects to deal with enchantments.
Green - Likes enchantments, loves creatures, loves lands, hates artifacts. Neural on nonpermanents. Prefers its creatures large, but in few numbers.

Cold side: Artifacts and sorceries.
Hot side: Instants and enchantments.
Both like creatures.

The whole instant/sorcery divide is goign to be annoying. Tempted to just erase it and make instant a supertype or do something with flash instead.

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PostPosted: Fri May 16, 2014 11:21 pm 
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TPzombieW wrote:
The whole instant/sorcery divide is goign to be annoying. Tempted to just erase it and make instant a supertype or do something with flash instead.

I was thinking the same thing, but I'm worried how we're going to template it in Apprentice (or whatever we use to draft this when it's done).

TPzombieW wrote:
What's the middle area like, the terminator, like? We have to address it somehow. Is it a verdant paradise for everyone to fight over, or do the weather effects turn it into a hellish wasteland combining the worst of both worlds? Maybe a change in thenature/location of the terminator could play a part in the story?

I think the verdant paradise idea is much better. We could call it the Bloombelt!

But Black and Red would have to have a place even there.

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PostPosted: Fri May 16, 2014 11:25 pm 
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Shazzeh wrote:
We have 5-6 factions: artifact, creature, enchantment, instant, and sorcery at the very least, and maybe lands?

White/Blue: Sorceries
Blue/Black: Artifacts
Black/Red: Instants
Red/Green: Creatures
Green/White: Enchantments

Just a thought.

Blue should definitely be involved with instants. How about this?

:u::b: artifacts:
:u::r: instants/sorceries, maybe rebound comes back?
:g::r: lands, returning mechanic is landfall
:g::w: creatures
:w::b: enchantments

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PostPosted: Fri May 16, 2014 11:26 pm 
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I was hoping to somehow make red be associated with enchantments, since I was under the impression the sun side would be enchantment, and the sun side is obviously red.

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PostPosted: Fri May 16, 2014 11:29 pm 
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Cato wrote:
Blue should definitely be involved with instants.

I was hoping to somehow make red be associated with enchantments, since I was under the impression the sun side would be enchantment, and the sun side is obviously red.

I edited my post to address both of these concerns.

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PostPosted: Fri May 16, 2014 11:31 pm 
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The biggest problem with this set that we'll have to solve, I think, is how to distinguish it mechanically from Mirrodin, Theros, and Zendikar with regards to artifacts, enchantments, and lands, respectively, and have it all come together as a cohesive unit rather than a themeless smorgasbord.

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PostPosted: Fri May 16, 2014 11:42 pm 
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The biggest problem with this set that we'll have to solve, I think, is how to distinguish it mechanically from Mirrodin, Theros, and Zendikar with regards to artifacts, enchantments, and lands, respectively, and have it all come together as a cohesive unit rather than a themeless smorgasbord.

Definitely. Careful themeing (thinking factions) and and loads of (cardtype) matters cards along with a few "count the cardtypes" cards should do it though.

I'm for bringing rebound back. It gives some longevity to instant/sorcery strategies, so that they can be they can stand on their own.

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PostPosted: Fri May 16, 2014 11:45 pm 
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I was hoping to somehow make red be associated with enchantments, since I was under the impression the sun side would be enchantment, and the sun side is obviously red.

To name-drop Mown:

Mown wrote:
Splitting the color pie in two and distributing them between the two sides seems lazy to me. I think it's more interesting to show how a color adapts differently to different areas.
It's some sort of pet peeve of mine. Split the colors into regions and I split your torso, or something like that.

There's no flavor problem with "cold" red cards or with "hot" blue cards. The association might be obvious, but it's not necessary, and in my opinion it gives us way less thematic diversity. It's also mechanically problematic, as red (and black) cards typically don't even acknowledge enchantments, let alone value them above other card types. We could bleed a bit, as Theros did, but is there a need? Red has a much closer relationship with artifacts, creatures, instants, and sorceries, and those are all supported themes in this block.

That's just my take. I'd be interested in hearing what other people think. :)


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PostPosted: Fri May 16, 2014 11:55 pm 
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I have no problem with that at all. What about distributing card types differently across both factions? At the very least I'm seeing a vague aggro/control split and a unique mechanic for both sides.

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PostPosted: Sat May 17, 2014 12:13 am 
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Some thoughts/ideas for things:

Hot side flavors:

Blue: Artificers that rely heavily on the use of steam. Yes, steampunk, or something. Water isn't scarce it just doesn't last long. Perhaps they have people from the cold side bring over snow constantly? Actually how advanced are these people going to be on either side? Do we just want the typical fantasy setting or do we want actual cities and etc as well as random tribes and junk?

Red: Red would probably be very powerful, religious and enchantment focused sounds cool actually. Red isn't known for it's enchantment love so perhaps the proximity to the sun gives them mana enough to turn their usual short-term fire and lightning type stuff into actual physical magic.

White: Probably a similar flavor to red on the hot side. Very strong enchantment connection, maybe religious maybe not. There's so many ways we can go with white.

Green: green does not like it here. Plants and animals wither and die. Perhaps a graveyard or sac related subtheme to show the scavenging nature? Some way to show dying plants, maybe no plants or maybe cards like tinder wall?

Black: I usually associate black with shadow and etc so I really don't know how to flavor them here.

Cold Side stuff:

-Later-

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PostPosted: Sat May 17, 2014 12:18 am 
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I like what Parad suggest withthe tricolors, but I kind of like making a Bizzaralara better (Alara colors were (obviously) already done)?

WBR - Instants or Creatures
URG - Enchantments or Sorceries
BGW - Creatures or Artifacts
RWU - Artifacts or Instants
GUB - Sorceries or Enchatnments

Or maybe we could do something where the colors care about different things on each side. Like, on one side Red cares about Creatures, while on the other it cares about Enchantments. This would only really be doable if each side had a mechanic, that's when it could really show on the cards.

You know we have to make a goyf for each color. Though that's a known... we should wait until later to actually design them (to ake sure we get the right type and feel).

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PostPosted: Sat May 17, 2014 12:21 am 
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I also see the middle as a wasteland.

It probably was a paradise once, but I see most residents as living close to the edge of that area to stay away from the heart of their respective sides. As such, I see much interaction in the case of wars, or trading (as Lily just mentioned). If it was wars, then the middle ground would be trashed or at least militarized.

Also, I feel that there should be a card to represent the very heart of each side, respectively. Maybe MR lands? Just a thought...

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PostPosted: Sat May 17, 2014 12:31 am 
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We could divorce artifacts and enchantments by depicting enchantments as nonphysical. They're more like energy or information or something.

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PostPosted: Sat May 17, 2014 12:49 am 
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The real question for LilyStorm and/or all of us is the flavor of Starstill.

I understand that the plane no longer moves, but how problematic is it.
Right now, I see it as a desert similar to the one in Chronicles of Riddick (where the direct sunlight can vaporize you in seconds), and the other side being something akin to earth in the Day After Tomorrow (where everything freezes almost instantly unless you have a relatively close heat source).

I'm beginning to sense that those are a bit off key, and would like some definition / clarification about that. Whether it is the two extremes (aka deadly, as mentioned above), or it's simply a desert versus a winter (uncomfortable, but nonlethal in most cases).

Thanks!

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PostPosted: Sat May 17, 2014 1:02 am 
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I have wondered about this too. I mean are we really ging to have half the plane in total darkness? Either everything takes place close to the terminator, or there's some mitigating factor that keeps things uncomfortable as opposed to literally unlivable.

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Last edited by TPzombieW on Sat May 17, 2014 1:07 am, edited 1 time in total.

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