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PostPosted: Thu May 15, 2014 6:10 am 
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Shell-Dweller is about as good as we could hope for here.


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PostPosted: Thu May 15, 2014 9:33 am 
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PostPosted: Thu May 15, 2014 10:57 am 
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Bounty.

Storm is open, folks.

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PostPosted: Thu May 15, 2014 11:02 am 
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desperate ritual for the duck in all of us, but mainly Jman

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PostPosted: Thu May 15, 2014 11:08 am 
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I guess bounty for cycling. I suppose we are not playing our raven's crimes.

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PostPosted: Thu May 15, 2014 1:01 pm 
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Wow, nobody's drafting black at all are they. Or storm.
Voting bounty.

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PostPosted: Thu May 15, 2014 1:24 pm 
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Sylvan Bounty is actually good despite looking awful.

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PostPosted: Thu May 15, 2014 5:55 pm 
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Shadowchu wrote:
dtolle wrote:
Thallid is one of the best 1/1 cmc 1 creatures, because it has the potential to be two or three 1/1 creatures. Its not good alone, and honestly its not goof in a thallid deck, but its a turn 1 play that could provide us some coverage for several turns. I'm still sad they didn't print Deathspore Thallid or Utopia Mycon in MM. If they're going to have thallids as an archetype, they are pretty essential.

It's okay to not know much about the format but saying blatantly incorrect things doesn't help anybody else get better. Thallid is terrible in this draft format. Thallid is just terrible in general, actually, but that doesn't matter. For cards to be good in the abstract you need to be able to create scenarios in which they are good. In the abstract this card isn't good and on top of that you haven't played the format at all, where it isn't good.

TPzombieW wrote:
Deadeye.
@Chu: Of course Thallid wasn't a good card. It would never do anything but chump block, but the thought was that that was necessary to keep us alive during our first 3-4 turns before drop the bombs.

I'd rather play basic land over a bad fog. And fog is a terrible card.

I'd like to know how you have any idea how much I've played this format? A 1/1 for 1 is on par. We have absolutely nothing to do turn 1. A 1/1 body is better than nothing. The potential to generate more 1/1's is also okay. There are exactly 9 CMC 1 creatures in MM. Thallid is no better or worse than any of them aside from Figure of Destiny.

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PostPosted: Thu May 15, 2014 6:40 pm 
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Bounty. Wish we had taken storm.

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PostPosted: Thu May 15, 2014 7:11 pm 
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dtolle wrote:
Shadowchu wrote:
dtolle wrote:
Thallid is one of the best 1/1 cmc 1 creatures, because it has the potential to be two or three 1/1 creatures. Its not good alone, and honestly its not goof in a thallid deck, but its a turn 1 play that could provide us some coverage for several turns. I'm still sad they didn't print Deathspore Thallid or Utopia Mycon in MM. If they're going to have thallids as an archetype, they are pretty essential.

It's okay to not know much about the format but saying blatantly incorrect things doesn't help anybody else get better. Thallid is terrible in this draft format. Thallid is just terrible in general, actually, but that doesn't matter. For cards to be good in the abstract you need to be able to create scenarios in which they are good. In the abstract this card isn't good and on top of that you haven't played the format at all, where it isn't good.

TPzombieW wrote:
Deadeye.
@Chu: Of course Thallid wasn't a good card. It would never do anything but chump block, but the thought was that that was necessary to keep us alive during our first 3-4 turns before drop the bombs.

I'd rather play basic land over a bad fog. And fog is a terrible card.

I'd like to know how you have any idea how much I've played this format? A 1/1 for 1 is on par. We have absolutely nothing to do turn 1. A 1/1 body is better than nothing. The potential to generate more 1/1's is also okay. There are exactly 9 CMC 1 creatures in MM. Thallid is no better or worse than any of them aside from Figure of Destiny.

I know you've never played this format because you pick bad cards and you think bad cards are good. I've played this format a lot and I've won a lot of it. What I'm saying is not irrefutable, but at least argue why I'm wrong.

Look at the rest of the format, what other decks have a density of turn one plays? What does a 1/1 kill in this format? How is a 1/1 for one on part with anything in this format. It's true that if I had a choice between no card and Thallid, I would take thallid because it's a card. However, Thallid is not better than a basic land in this format. It doesn't help you go over the top of anybody. The 4/4s that make 1/1s are good because 4/4 is big in this format and getting random 1/1s to to Tromp the Domains or allowing you to bash with your 4/4s and blocking on the crack backs is good. 1/1 cannot swing through anything and making 1/1s to block isn't good when you're not doing anything with them.

Give reasons to why a card is good. Saying it's a 1/1 that makes more 1/1s is just reading what the card does. Explain why that is good. You haven't played the format so at least explain theoretically what this card does to make the deck better.

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PostPosted: Thu May 15, 2014 8:01 pm 
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Shadowchu wrote:
Thallid is just terrible in general, actually, but that doesn't matter.

I remember it being above average in Fallen Empires sealed.

Bounty.

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PostPosted: Thu May 15, 2014 8:21 pm 
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Alright. On straight statistics, there are 90 creatures with CMC 3 or less. Thallid blocks roughly half of those, trading with roughly half of those it blocks. That's better than any other creature we have before turn 4. Your continuous instance that a basic land is better has nothing to do with that fact that we had to pick a card, from the pack, which didn't have any basic land. At this point, our first three turns are thallids. Having something down first turn is better than nothing. And guess what, if no one else has a relevant turn 1 play, thallid is 1 damage turn 2. Thallid could easily deal 2-3 damage and then chump saving us from a few points of damage, easily getting us closer to our game winning bombs. Is thallid isn't the best turn 1 creature. Not by far, not in this format or any other, but its the ONLY turn 1 creature we have at all. And its better than rift bolt for our deck, since we aren't red in the slightest.

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PostPosted: Fri May 16, 2014 12:33 am 
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Thallid is good bc it makes chu put on his lecture pants, which is an improvement over his nudest lifestyle.

But in reality Thallid is bad bc it's only good when you play it on T1 and your opponent literally dies. Literally.

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PostPosted: Fri May 16, 2014 12:38 am 
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rstnme wrote:
Thallid is good bc it makes chu put on his lecture pants, which is an improvement over his nudest lifestyle.

But in reality Thallid is bad bc it's only good when you play it on T1 and your opponent literally dies. Literally.

Basically this.

The problem with thallid is that it's a 1/1 and 1/1s don't do anything on a lot of boards.

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PostPosted: Fri May 16, 2014 12:56 am 
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I don't dispute this point. But right now thallid is a better option than nothing. Also saying that a common one drop isn't good because it isn't relevant past the early game is like saying our bombs are bad because they aren't relevant in the first few turns. Each card has its own part to play in our game plan.

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PostPosted: Fri May 16, 2014 1:34 am 
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Thallid was taken over Rift Bolt.

We passed a good card for an unplayable one.

And no, it's not saying that at all. Our entire deck is built around trying to get more lands into play and making land drops so we can play these big morons that murder them. Thallid doesn't do that at all.

You can keep defending Thallid (I don't know why you would), but you don't have any game experience. Your theoretical about Thallid being good isn't the actual. Go play some MMA and then come back and seriously say that Thallid is good.

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PostPosted: Fri May 16, 2014 5:40 am 
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I have game experience, I have played MM, and thallid is playable. To be honest, you keep saying I'm not giving reasons for thallid being playable, yet you've done nothing but say you have experience and that it isn't good. Why isn't it good? Let's see some proof from your end?

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PostPosted: Fri May 16, 2014 8:38 am 
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This is how I'd build this pool:
1 x Durkwood Baloth
2 x Search for Tomorrow

1 x Riftsweeper
2 x Thallid Shell-Dweller
2 x Giant Dustwasp
1 x Sylvan Bounty

1 x Thallid Germinator
1 x Blinding Beam
2 x Erratic Mutation
2 x Kodama's Reach

2 x Imperiosaur
1 x Penumbra Spider
1 x Thrashing Mossdog

1 x Sporoloth Ancient
1 x Meloku the Clouded Mirror

1 x Æthersnipe
1 x Keiga, the Tide Star
1 x Oona, Queen of the Fae

8 x Forest
6 x Island
1 x Plains
1 x Swamp

Sideboard
2 x Raven's Crime
1 x Thallid
1 x Desperate Ritual
1 x Logic Knot
1 x Syphon Life
1 x Citanul Woodreaders
1 x Petals of Insight
1 x Walker of the Grove
1 x Thundering Giant
1 x Arcbound Wanderer
1 x Sporoloth Ancient
1 x Skyreach Manta
1 x Reach of Branches
1 x Pallid Mycoderm


We have three very good cards to play on turn one: a Durkwood Baloth and two copies of Search for tomorrow. All three legitimate first picks in a weak pack. Turn two has a lot of plays too, but three is a little troublesome. This deck actually has a lot of options; there's the Manta, Raven's Crime, the second Ancient, Reach of Branches in sideboard. In fact, sideboarding is probably its strongest point. Shell-dwellers, for example, do nothing against some decks and can be exchanged for Raven's Crime, swapping most Islands for Swamps.

I went all in on land search, with double Search and Reach and the landcycler, enabling me to play only 16 lands over four basic types. This may be a bit too adventurous, but hey, this is a ramp deck :)

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PostPosted: Fri May 16, 2014 8:41 am 
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Swamp?


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PostPosted: Fri May 16, 2014 9:15 am 
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