I don't want to dredge up everything from the "sexist slur" thread. But Keeper made a few excellent points late in the game over there, and one of them I want to discuss.



This is, frankly, a very good question. And it's one I don't think we have a very good answer to. "Everybody" most certainly is not a good answer - we can't be for everybody. Just the language issue proves that: we can't be for racists if we're going to filter out all the racist words. (And, of course, we don't want to be a place for racist, which right away says "everybody" is the wrong answer.)

This is the sort of question that's best answered by developing a "mission statement" - a short paragraph (2-4 sentences) that summarizes what we expect the site to be and who it's for. Mission statements can evolve over time. For example if we add in the wiki and find our core audience has shifted for some unexplained reason, the mission statement can be adjusted to take into account the new core audience. (Or, of course, the new core audience could be essentially kicked out if it's determined the mission statement shouldn't change.)

Here are some sample mission statements, and here's a simplified way to go about building one.

Sort of like the English parliament and monarch, we'll build this mission statement as democratically as possible, but Bun (as the site's owner and bill payer) does have final say. (Mentioning this here and now up front for full disclosure, so there aren't any surprises if Bun doesn't like the way something is worded even if majority agrees.) Once we have this written, it will be added into the top of the CoC, before any of the rules of the site.

(And I'll say this here, too, so somebody else doesn't have to: Yes, this should have been done way back at the beginning. There were discussions about it, but it was never formalized. Do me a favor, please, and keep the gloating and "I told you so" comments out of the thread. We're moving forward now.)

So: what do we want to be? Who is our target audience? What is our mission as a site?

if only we had a place to plan things like this before the site launch

If only we had a time machine so we could back and do that... Somebody call the Doctor and see if we can borrow the Tardis!

Participate in the conversation, or don't. Your choice. The request was made for more democratic and open processes. Here's the first chance at it.

Why does a forum need a mission statement? Isn't "Having a kickass forum" good enough?

given how involved you have been in the heated discussion of things in the metaboard I can't imagine you are being serious right now

"Having a kickass forum" is, itself, a sort of mission statement. It has some vagueness built into it, because what I think is kickass and what you think is kickass and what John Doe thinks is kickass are probably all different. And so while it's a mission statement, it's not a firm mission statement; it either needs additions to it that define how to become a kickass forum or it needs to be restated differently.

Let's please stick to the topic of this thread. If somebody says something and your only reply is to berate them, then please choose not to reply at all. The request was made for more open discussion, and so I'm attempting that here; you're free, of course, to decide I'm not being sincere in opening up this discussion. That's your choice. But this was something from Keeper's post that I saw that normally would have been a post on the mod forum - "Hey, look! This is a great idea! How do we get here?" - and instead decided to discuss it openly.

EDITTED: “To be a stable and organized site where members are free to discuss and create content for the games they love in a respectful manner.”

Admittedly, under this wording, the “Off Topic” forum doesn’t fit. Then again, what does that forum accomplish except to draw in arguments? It has nothing to do with games, creation of content, or stability/organization.

Also, I’d appreciate if the Magic section had a Rules Q&A section. There’s been a couple people who have had questions, but no good spot for them to ask.

1) That's why it's called Off topic
2) Some of us like normal talk as well. There are plenty of normal topics.

There are, but I think many people use it as an excuse to throw around inflammatory speech. I don't think we need to create a forum that's age-restricted, and I fully support a family-friendly environment. That doesn't mean an environment free from critique, but there's absolutely no reason that we should even have to do deal with trolls and flamers.

EDIT: I've added "in a respectful manner" to my suggested Mission Statement.

Thanks for taking a shot at writing a statement, Yarium. It's a good starting point.

Let's avoid discussions about the Off Topic Room here; we can make a new thread to discuss the merits (or lack of) if we need it, but I don't think it's going to go anywhere. (And also as a quick aside, for the short term rules Q&A can go into General. Expansion is always possible going forward, of course, but for now that's the best fit.)

a rules q&a thread could just be made and stickied in mtg general

like the card clinic in ymtc

Sounds like a solid plan to me!

Any other thoughts on a mission statement? Any honest critiques about Yarium's stab at it?

And the very fact that we have a forum makes it kinda already implied.
...Remember when I was objecting to the CoC for that very reason? Can we at least keep some consistency here?
You'll not be able to make one that I can't poke holes in without it being several paragraphs in length at a bare minimum.
It's a good start.
Yes, it's pointless. It's not going to turn into anything meaningful. The Code of Conduct is more meaningful, and it currently is contradictory and looks like it was written by an elementary school student.
Yes. It's terrible.

To start, it's incredibly redundant, exclusive, and generally meaningless all at the same time, which seems like a kinda difficult thing to be. Restricting the forum entirely to gaming is stupid for so many reasons so blatantly obvious I'm not going to even bother getting into, "stable and organized" is redundant, and the entire thing manages to be otherwise meaningless. My "Have a kickass forum" was better, and I said it to snark. Hell, even the "justification" behind it made it worse, pretentious and douchey.

But **** it, whatever, why not "Have an orderly, inclusive, community community that kicks ass1."
1Where kicking ass means having fun, being chill, and not getting butthurt.
You're **** joking, right? Has it occurred to you that maybe, just maybe, not everyone here is a lifeless neckbeard that cares only for MTG?
Are you up to date on your alimony payments to reality?
Yeah, that's stupid. If someone wants to have a mature discussion about serious issues, we shouldn't be prevented from it because some eight-year old whose parents think RPGs are satanic would object. This is the internet. People who get butthurt have only themselves to blame.
So we shouldn't have to deal with you? Okay, I can get behind that.

Here are my thoughts on the whole issue. The bare minimum of the mission statement should be pretty non-objectionable to everyone here: This forum is supposed to be a gathering of people who play all kinds of games, with "traditional" ones taking some priority over virtual ones. There's no need to include the fact that there's room for off-topic discussion, as that's not the main focus of the boards. As far as the nuances of the mission go, though... honestly, at this point I actually don't think anyone knows the exact direction this whole thing is going.

There seem to be two main views, two general groups of users who have different ideas as to how they feel posting should be conducted here. One is focused on "Internet realism", believing that everyone here is seasoned and mature enough to have experienced some of the less friendly things the Internet has to offer. They advocate a more relaxed and laid back atmosphere, leaving harsh language unfiltered (at least as an option), and allowing for a high degree of freedom in threads, as long as nobody violates any of the site's most important rules. The other group of users seems to be a bit more idealistic and content driven, rather than looking to create a place to just casually chill out. They want to create a safe haven for gaming discussion, far away from the less family-friendly areas of the Internet, a bit like an online island. Everyone's main purpose here would be to "conduct business", keeping the banter outside of the off-topic areas to a bare minimum.

Now, here's the kicker: Neither side is wrong, there is no "right way" to handle things. However, I believe there is a wrong way to do things, and that would be completely discounting one group in favor of the other. Due to the very nature of what they want and how they're asking for it, the users advocating a more casual atmosphere are always going to be considered the black sheep - and as such, will have a much more difficult time in getting themselves to be treated seriously in contrast to the other users. Not taking into serious account what they have to say is a grave mistake though, there needs to be some yin to everyone else's yang. On one hand, no one can say that doing everything by the books and staying on topic is bad. On the other hand, without a more relaxed, and dare I even say cynical group of users, this place would become a massive **** and a giant bubble, unaffected by outside influence and missing out on crucial criticism.

This post has been kinda ranty, but I guess what I'm trying to say is this: There needs to be a clear cut compromise between what people want, we can't just give 100% to some and 0% to others. The very basics of our "mission statement" are set in stone, but as a community we simply haven't developed enough to know where we really want to take this. At first glance Yarium's mission statement might look fine, but I personally don't like it because it feels like a veiled jab at the advocates of a more casual forum, implying that they no longer have a say in how the boards are going to evolve.

@Cyclon_Joker; I think you might be missing out on what a Mission Statement is. It is supposed to be brief, generic, and high-concept. It's not supposed to be highly specific. Unfortunately, the way you're handling yourself in those responses is exactly the reason I wouldn't want to be on a forum like this, with many of those comments being inflammatory, vulgar, and serving no purpose except to try to impose "butthurt" on me. I have a thick skin, so that doesn't bother me, but what does it say about the quality of the people we are if we stoop to those kinds of conversations?

@Ogre; I appreciate your criticism on that statement. My statement itself is not trying to jab at casual forums, even if I might be. I hadn't considered this forum as just a hang-out spot. If I want to do that, I tend to do other things. Maybe I'm oddly in the minority on that, but I thought we all came here because we had a shared passion (gaming), and we wanted to discus that passion. Whatever the mission statement is, shouldn't that be at the core of it? Otherwise, what makes us different from reddit or other massive forums?

I know some people who don't play pnp rpgs and magic who post here

I am one of them

Yet that was the exact objection to "kickass forums."

Also, yours still fails quite hard at that, so it's not like it matters much.
That at least some of us, are actually interested in having a diverse forum?
>You admit to be jabbing at "casual forums."
>Deny jabbing at "casual forums."
lolwut.
Cool. Some of us don't.
No, last I checked most of us came over because WotC went to hell.
No.

So, GobO_Fire, you can see where the difference is. A board about gaming, with a side-spot for "hanging out" lets people do what they want, but still have a voice when they want to chat about other things. It may feel "exclusive" in concept, but is actually very accepting in practice. Contrast this to the above on a person who wants to be "inclusive" with an about-anything board with sections of gaming, but whom flames people to leave if they hold differing opinions. Which do you think will attract and retain more forum members?

As part of those "others," I might as well say something, though I'm not one to make up mission statements or anything like that.

I think most of us from the old Flavor & Storylines board migrated over because, as Ravenclaw said, we're a group of friends. I can't speak for anyone since I'm only just now a member of 2 forums, and only use a total of 4 social media sites (g+ {with a grand total of 9 friends, 7 of which are my F&S buddies}, DA {which I only last week decided to start using as a social media site}, here, and the mothership), but for me it was all a matter of where the majority of the F&S crew went. I have formed some really great bonds with them, and grown a lot because of them; I did not want to lose them.

*Ahem* where was I? As for what I expect out of the community: About the same as Ravenclaw outlined. Friendliness and Respect foremost among them. I understand not everyone can be completely mature when they first come here -I know I wasn't- but having someone come in with no other goal than to say "you are all idiots" is not something I... appreciate in the least.

While the Expanded Multiverse grew from the F&S, it does hold itself to a bit higher standard. Mostly in what we accept into our Archives or not, but we do like to consider it a bit more professional than other forums. Since it's a creative thing, we like to keep all normal discussion elsewhere, and reserve our section for Works In Progress, Votes, Business, and other such things. Although, personally, I ascribe to the motto "Restrictions Breed Creativity," so I'm more lenient as far as filters go provided the earlier caveats of friendliness and respect are met.

That was already a mouthful, and I think I've said my peace. I want this place to be friendly, respectful, and creative.