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PostPosted: Sat Mar 15, 2014 4:43 pm 
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So I was looking through some books at some of the modules I might want to try playing and I saw a few enemies that had dash in place of where their defense would be. What does that mean?

Does that mean that they simply cannot be attacked by attacks versus that defense, or that any attack against that defense hits?


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PostPosted: Sat Mar 15, 2014 5:06 pm 
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Could you give a bit more information?

Which module and which creature? I'm pretty sure I think you're talking about attacking objects or traps.

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PostPosted: Sat Mar 15, 2014 5:54 pm 
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I have to admit I'm curious about this as well. I know 4E did away with things like constructs and undead not having Fortitude/Will scores so I can't think of a reason why a creature would not have these defenses.

I thought the same as Oakenheart as well but after checking the DMG traps don't have defenses at all so I've got no idea. Your going to have to give us the specific example here. Colour me intrigued.

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PostPosted: Sat Mar 15, 2014 6:30 pm 
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I was glancing through Keep on the Shadowfell module since so many people keep mentioning it here and theres a room in there with some statues in it. Theres one big titan statue and two smaller dragon statues and none of them have any numbers beside with and fortitude. I get that a statue shouldnt have a will so I was thinking that, but why not a fortitude? And why would it have a reflex then?


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PostPosted: Sat Mar 15, 2014 6:50 pm 
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Hey, we just had the same question come up in our game. Dont know if you were watching the twitch stream when we were talking about it.

The room in question is Area 16 : Chamber of Statues in Keep on the Shadowfell which is down on the second level of the keep. Here's the stat blocks for the baddies :

Image

Dont mind the crummy MS Paint cropping job. I searched around online and didnt find too much from googling various keywords (though I did find several pages complaining about how broken this fight is and how it should be better planned out) so I figured I'd start sifting through both the KotS quick start rules and the Dungeon Master's Guide and finally came upon the answer...I think.

Quote:
Dungeon Masters Guide : Page 66
Damaging Objects
Like characters, objects have hit points and defense scores (except for Will defense; see Object Immunities and Vulnerabilities, below).
An object’s AC, Fortitude, and Reflex defense depend entirely on its size. (As you can tell from the following table, it’s pretty easy to hit an object; so easy, in fact, that many DMs just skip the attack roll unless the situation is particularly dramatic.) An object’s hit point total generally depends on two factors: its size and its material. As a rule, larger or thicker objects have more hit points than smaller or thinner ones. Objects made of stone or metal have more hit points than those made of wood or glass.
Exceptions to this general rule abound. An object that’s big but full of delicate moving parts might have fewer hit points than a smaller, more solid object, because it doesn't take as much damage to render that object functionally useless.

Object Immunities and Vulnerabilities
Usually, it doesn’t matter what kind of attack you make against an object: Damage is damage. However, there are a few exceptions.
All objects are immune to poison damage, psychic damage, and necrotic damage.
Objects don’t have a Will defense and are immune to attacks that target Will defense. Some unusual materials might be particularly resistant to some or all kinds of damage. In addition, you might rule that some kinds of damage are particularly effective against certain objects and grant the object vulnerability to that damage type. For example, a gauzy curtain or a pile of dry papers might have vulnerability 5 to fire because any spark is likely to destroy it.


This leads me to believe that the bad guys that have a dash rather than a defense simply cannot be attacked at all by attacks that versus that defense. I cannot however answer why statues have a reflex.

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PostPosted: Sat Mar 15, 2014 6:51 pm 
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Ah Keep on the Shadowfell. That pretty much explains it. KotS was actually written as a module *before* the core rulebooks. Because of this there are a decent number of little discrepancies between what is presented in that module and how the rules as a whole work. I'd assume then that at some point in development Constructs would have been immune to attacks targeting Will and Fortitude but this was dropped before the rulebooks hit shelves. The '-' through the defenses is most likely an artifact of this. KotS actually has a few of these little issues come up - a big one being just how insanely tough Ironfang (I think that's his name - the Goblin chieftain) is compared to monster that would appear in the MM.

Edit - or what Bounty Hunter said.

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PostPosted: Sat Mar 15, 2014 7:24 pm 
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From what I can tell, all of the stuff Garren just said. KotS doesnt seem to balance well with ...most of 4e...and is full of little things that go against how the rules currently work. Theres several places that should have suprise rounds that dont, or vice versa and the enemies arent really balanced for a level one module. Some fights are a breeze and not even a challenge and others like Irontooth arent fair to the party at all.

Irontooth killed my entire Play-By-Post group (except the one guy who ran away) without even getting to his bloodied value.

Edit : We just ran into another issue, Kalrel has an note next to his AC for something called Shadow Form but nothing on his card saying what it is...turns out it just doesnt exist, per WotC customer support.

http://wizards.custhelp.com/app/answers ... shadowfell

Check out this page for more.

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PostPosted: Sat Mar 15, 2014 7:52 pm 
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For completeness sake the reason why your statues have a Reflex save is entirely a balance reason. Depending on build and load out it is perfectly possible for dedicated spellcasters (Warlocks and Wizards specifically) to enter such an encounter without packing a single attack that targets AC (although admittedly unlikely). As such at least one other defense had to be a viable target and Reflex was the least ridiculous option (although still pretty ridiculous).

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PostPosted: Sat Mar 15, 2014 8:17 pm 
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I dunno man, I think a statue would have a high amount of Fortitude be resistant to things like poison and the like. The warlock I'm playing in my Red Box play by post game doesnt attack AC like you mentioned 90% of my spells target reflex and an odd one or two go for Will.

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PostPosted: Sat Mar 15, 2014 8:17 pm 
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As a seasoned 4e DM (been running it since it was released) I can tell you that if something or someone is "lacking" in a defence score it is because they are immune to attacks of that nature.

THAT BEING SAID, what Garren said about KotS containing out-of-date rules applies here.

Off the top of my head, objects and vehicles (which function a lot like monsters sometimes) don't have a will defence because they can't be targeted with such attacks. I'm sure there are probably monsters as well that have that quality, but I'm too lazy to check right now.

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PostPosted: Mon Mar 17, 2014 8:12 pm 
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What Bounty Hunter said. Enemies or objects that have no score for a particular defense simply cannot be attacked by powers that target that defense.


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