No Goblins Allowed
http://862838.jrbdt8wd.asia/

Grixis vs Esper
http://862838.jrbdt8wd.asia/viewtopic.php?f=61&t=18902		 Page 1 of 1
Author:  Ballz [ Fri Jun 02, 2017 1:30 pm ]
Post subject:  Grixis vs Esper
I've been playing divinevert's iterations of Esper control since Duels was released (thanks!). It's consistently been my strongest winner. Very rarely loses to an aggro deck that just gets a god draw, but otherwise, it's pretty untouchable. I've been testing out a Grixis control deck for the past couple of weeks, and it's been performing at about the same level as the Esper decks. Losing white is a big sacrifice - so much help for control with Blessed Alliance, Anguished Unmaking, Gideon, Ally of Zendikar, and Sorin, Grim Nemesis. However...here's my argument for the addition of red...

We gain Dark Intimations. It's Uge. We gain Cut // Ribbons. Late game Ribbons is :censored: great. We gain two Chandra's Chandra, Torch of Defiance, Chandra, Flamecaller and we gain two extra wipes Radiant Flames

Dark Intimations is like...really strong. Really, really strong. Like. It does SO much!! Especially with the red cards and the Dynavolt Towerthat can remove selected targets to make sure the sacrifice effect hits a PW or gnarly creature. It's a huge power swing, and you can play PW's a little bit more recklessly...I'll drop Chandra and -4 her as an additional wipe, with a smile on my face knowing she'll be back shortly.

Here's the list, if anyone has suggestions, I'm all ears.

Instants:

3 x Fatal Push
2 x Censor
2 x Scatter to the Winds
4 x Spell Shrivel
3 x Glimmer of Genius
2 x Confirm Suspicions
1 x Commit // Memory

Sorceries:

2 x Radiant Flames
2 x Languish
2 x Cut // Ribbons
2 x Dark Intimations

Creatures:

1 x Disciple of the Ring

Artifacts:
2 x Dynavolt Tower
1 x Torrential Gearhulk

Planeswalkers:

1 x Liliana, the Last Hope
1 x Chandra, Torch of Defiance
1 x Jace, Unraveler of Secrets
1 x Ob Nixilis, Reignited
1 x Chandra, Flamecaller

Lands:

3 x Island
2 x Swamp
2 x Mountain
2 x Wandering Fumarole
2 x Smoldering Marsh
2 x Sunken Hollow
2 x Drowned Catacomb
2 x Sulfur Falls
2 x Dragonskull Summit
3 x Aether Hub
4 x Evolving Wilds


Questionable choices...I just recently swapped out baby Jace for 1 copy of Commit // Memory as mill defense, plus a card refresh once both towers are online and to potentially give us more Dark Intimations. Not sure that's the best swap.

Baby Jace hasn't performed super well in this deck, since there are only 3 creatures, he generally gets crushed unless I hold him back until T5, but even then in most cases, by T5 I might only have 2 cards in the GY so I have to spend counters defending him long enough to flip. This deck is fairly slow to start, unless you can drop a T3 Lili or T4 Chandra. I feel like a better choice over baby Jace would be Kefnet the Mindful to help us keep drawing cards. I have Commit in there right now just testing it out.

Lands ok? I don't know how the mana base building works, but I haven't been running into mana issues at all.
Author:  WoodlandWanderer [ Fri Jun 02, 2017 1:57 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Grixis vs Esper
cut ribbons out. harnessed lightning in. don't really need the ribbons reach if you get to that much mana right? I'd take dynavolt out as well for more removal (disintegration). very good deck. it's the best control.

oh. 3 censor no brainer.
Author:  HARBiNG3R [ Fri Jun 02, 2017 2:19 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Grixis vs Esper
My biggest issues with grixis over esper control is that grixis can run into issues if troublesome enchantments hit the board, it doesn't have ways of removing them other than bouncing them and counter spelling them (essentially 2 for 1 yourself). The other is the lack of life gain which can sometimes be the difference of just barely stabilizing vs aggro and just getting domed by burn. Overall, I think grixis can more easily cut down super aggro decks because it has more access to cheaper early removal.
Author:  TheGodAmongMen [ Fri Jun 02, 2017 2:37 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Grixis vs Esper
WoodlandWanderer wrote:
cut ribbons out. harnessed lightning in. don't really need the ribbons reach if you get to that much mana right? I'd take dynavolt out as well for more removal (disintegration). very good deck. it's the best control.

oh. 3 censor no brainer.


I can agree with the cut // ribbons cut, but tower for disintegration just seems awful...
It's basically a multi coloured murder.

I would almost rather never // return, even though it's slightly harder on the mana.
That being said I like the towers.
Author:  Ballz [ Fri Jun 02, 2017 3:20 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Grixis vs Esper
Thanks for the feedback. Interesting choices.

It's true, enchantments can sometimes be tough to deal with. Mill seems to be the worst of it, so that's why I jammed in a Commit // Memory, hoping it'll get milled into the yard in time for me to reset.

I really, really like that Harnessed Lightning is instant speed + energy, but, Ribbons closes out just soooooo many matches. Many of the matches end when I have a double tower, smack a Ribbons, then tower tap for 6. It's like, savage. Hitting the face from the GY is really super great. I'm willing to give up instant speed for the late wincon. But I might try that swap and see if it helps the early game a little more.

Also I just realized, baby Jace can give us an extra Dark Intimations too, once he flips, so I need to find a way to slot him back in.

I opted out of Never // Return because Dark Intimations deals with PW's most of the time. Most of the PW decks I'm running into are creature light. The deck is already sorcery heavy, so I'm super reluctant to add in more. Hmmm...lots to think about.
Author:  Ballz [ Fri Jun 02, 2017 3:38 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Grixis vs Esper
HARBiNG3R wrote:
My biggest issues with grixis over esper control is that grixis can run into issues if troublesome enchantments hit the board, it doesn't have ways of removing them other than bouncing them and counter spelling them (essentially 2 for 1 yourself). The other is the lack of life gain which can sometimes be the difference of just barely stabilizing vs aggro and just getting domed by burn. Overall, I think grixis can more easily cut down super aggro decks because it has more access to cheaper early removal.


Agree 100%. The lifegain from Blessed Alliance and Shambling Vent and Sorin, Grim Nemesis is huge. My anecdotal experience with the deck is that I finish the match with 20 life far more often than I did with the esper deck.

I have been blown out a few times, it's definitely harder to recover if you fall behind than the Esper deck for that reason, but I feel like we're ahead quite a bit in the early game, and the late game tends to almost shift to a hybrid control/burn style with lots of damage coming across the table once a Chandra and the towers put in some work.

Esper still might be the best shell for control, but I just cherish me some Dark Intimations and fills me with joy every time I cast it. Getting a cast of that through often scoops the game right there.
Author:  TheGodAmongMen [ Fri Jun 02, 2017 3:52 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Grixis vs Esper
That being said commit // memory isn't exactly good vs mill because if they have 2-3 tutlages out you're still getting milled damn near your whole deck.
Author:  HARBiNG3R [ Fri Jun 02, 2017 4:07 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Grixis vs Esper
Yeah I have actually fully milled a deck after a memory with 2 tutelages on the board (was in desperate need of answers for the board), it was kind of funny. I don't necessarily think esper is a better control deck, it's more of a toolbox control deck that tries to have answers for everything which it does pretty well. However, it will run into issues with aggro decks that run pretty low to the ground. It really only runs push for turn one plays and opponents casting a bunch 1 - 2 cmc threats while you are on the draw and staring at a hand with counter magic, cast out and unmake doesn't feel very good. I think with grixis you just have to accept that you will cough up some matchups and build deck that is good against aggro - mid range - ramp and focus on getting to your finishers quickly. Bolas should be a powerful addition coming soon, let's see what other goods he brings.
Author:  Goblin Rabblemaster [ Fri Jun 02, 2017 4:39 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Grixis vs Esper
If you really want to fight aggro straight U/R is the most consistent. You don't play pushes, but you play the energy suite alongside 4/6 t1 removal, and play a deeper control game from there. It doesn't have any mana issues, it can afford to run on lower lands, and magma spray (omitted here for push) is quite a good card even in duels. You don't need black for this.

Grixis as presented here is basically 95% favourite vs anything even approaching midrange. That includes walker decks and most aggressive 23 landers (although hasted gruul might steal more games than you would like). It's not quite as perfect vs deeper control (many dead cards, will be reduced to jamming walker threats into counterspells) or vs hyper aggro (burn finishes you off).

I think with Chandra, Flamecaller and the upcoming Bolas, one could envision grixis being built more as a tapout control deck, with the only true weakness being enchantments (which would mean maybe trying to get a bit more incidental damage in, so 1 swing from a disciple or a resolved bolas are confirmed kills).

From this angle, I quite like Cut // Ribbons, but it's a bit fragile, since Never // Return is quite popular.

Long story short : Dark Intimations is a SWEET card, and this deck will do fine on ladder... in the theoryscape of magic duels, I think there are too many weak points compared to esper or jeskai to play this instead.... but yeah, those decks don't get to play baby Cruel Ultimatum

Also this deck is soft to vehicles...You really need harnessed Lightning.

6/10
Author:  Ballz [ Sat Jun 03, 2017 9:08 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Grixis vs Esper
Thx for the feedback :)

Esper is still probably a more consistent winner, and the Grixis version can have some pretty crazy blowouts...either way. Wonder if there's a way to make room for DI in an Esper deck, or is that too demanding on the mana base?
Author:  Modulo [ Sat Jun 03, 2017 9:33 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Grixis vs Esper
Ballz wrote:
Thx for the feedback :)

Esper is still probably a more consistent winner, and the Grixis version can have some pretty crazy blowouts...either way. Wonder if there's a way to make room for DI in an Esper deck, or is that too demanding on the mana base?


There have been 4-colour control decks before; so if you want to go down that route it's possible. You may have to cut down some cards that become too hard to cast however (Lili, for instance).
Another problem is that you don't want to overload on expensive spells - do you really need Intimations alongside Pull from Tomorrow and Confirm Suspicions?
Author:  zzmorg82 [ Sat Jun 03, 2017 9:40 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Grixis vs Esper
Ballz wrote:
Thx for the feedback :)

Esper is still probably a more consistent winner, and the Grixis version can have some pretty crazy blowouts...either way. Wonder if there's a way to make room for DI in an Esper deck, or is that too demanding on the mana base?


Nah it should be fairly easy; if it's your only red card in the while deck then adding a single mountain should be good enough in my opinion.
Author:  Ballz [ Sat Jun 03, 2017 10:14 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Grixis vs Esper
Cool, I ended up slapping them in the deck. Here's where it's at...open to suggestions, haven't really tested it out except for 3 matches. First match I drew DI in the opener, and it's a dead card for a long time, so I would have preferred another counter, but the other two, I drew it about 20 cards deep, and it swung both games. Just completely flipped the matches around.

Here's the list:

Instants:
3 x Fatal Push
3 x Blessed Alliance
3 x Censor
2 x Unsubstantiate
2 x Scatter to the Winds
3 x Spell Shrivel
1 x Murder
2 x Anguished Unmaking
2 x Glimmer of Genius
1 x Confirm Suspicions

Sorceries:
2 x Languish
2 x Dark Intimations

Creatures:
1 x Jace, Vryn's Prodigy
1 x Disciple of the Ring
1 x Torrential Gearhulk

Planeswalkers:
1 x Liliana, the Last Hope
1 x Gideon, Ally of Zendikar
1 x Jace, Unraveler of Secrets
1 x Ob Nixilis Reignited
1 x Sorin, Grim Nemesis

Lands:

2 x Plains
3 x Island
2 x Swamp
2 x Shambling Vent
2 x Smoldering Marsh
2 x Sunken Hollow
2 x Drowned Catacomb
2 x Sulfur Falls
2 x Glacial Fortress
3 x Aether Hub
4 x Evolving Wilds


I feel like now that there's a red splash, I should make room for Nahiri, the Harbinger.
Author:  divinevert [ Sat Jun 03, 2017 11:55 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Grixis vs Esper
Given the strain on your manabase for red, you should be cutting Scatter, not Shrivel
Author:  Ballz [ Sun Jun 04, 2017 5:27 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Grixis vs Esper
Made the swap Scatter to the Winds for Spell Shrivel.

I don't want to get too carried away with the red splash, but I also started experimenting with Nahiri, the Harbinger. She's been a great addition, even though her ult has only 3 choices in the deck (baby jace, Disciple, Gearhulk). Just using her -2 ability once is a decent payoff.
Author:  Black Barney [ Sun Jun 04, 2017 5:28 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Grixis vs Esper
Farley looks like he's days from the dirt nap in that pic
Author:  Ballz [ Sun Jun 04, 2017 7:05 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Grixis vs Esper
Black Barney wrote:
Farley looks like he's days from the dirt nap in that pic


Right? My favorite pic of him. :) It's my avatar on PokerStars too.
Author:  KraAS [ Tue Jun 06, 2017 1:53 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Grixis vs Esper
Grixis is not so good imo.

Bigest problem are the enchantments... If you are on the draw and dont have censor to counter t3 opponent visions,tutelage or towers then its often gg.

For me mardu pw is good, it can handle agro mid ramp but always lose against esper heavy counter.

Esper on the other hand often lose to agro becouse push is not always enought .
Author:  Modulo [ Tue Jun 06, 2017 3:21 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Grixis vs Esper
KraAS wrote:
Grixis is not so good imo.

Bigest problem are the enchantments... If you are on the draw and dont have censor to counter t3 opponent visions,tutelage or towers then its often gg.

For me mardu pw is good, it can handle agro mid ramp but always lose against esper heavy counter.

Esper on the other hand often lose to agro becouse push is not always enought .


Blue actually got decent enchant removal in Commit // Memory as well as counterspells (Censor ftw). While enchant removal is not (and never will be) Grixis' strongest suit, I think it's okay.

As written in many other threads, I'm running URw Control and am very happy with it (White splash for Radiant Flames and Nahiri; would not have splashed if we had Sweltering Suns though).
Author:  KraAS [ Tue Jun 06, 2017 1:01 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Grixis vs Esper
@modulo: where can i find your urw list?

As for commit i dont like it, played many games with it and didnt do much for me. But in one game where i had 2 tutelages on board used memory and milled my oponent from all of his cards.
Page 1 of 1 All times are UTC - 6 hours [ DST ]
Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Group
http://www.phpbb.com/