No Goblins Allowed :: [BREWING] Gruul Midrange Beatdown

22 Creatures
3 x Bloodlust Inciter
2 x Sylvan Advocate
2 x Duskwatch Recruiter
3 x Voltaic Brawler
3 x Khenra Charioteer
2 x Tireless Tracker
1 x Nissa, Vastwood Seer
1 x Rhonas the Indomitable
2 x Bristling Hydra
1 x Samut, Voice of Dissent
2 x Glorybringer

3 Planeswalkers
1 x Arlinn Kord
1 x Nissa, Vital Force
1 x Chandra, Flamecaller

6 Instants
3 x Harnessed Lightning
3 x Blossoming Defense

4 Sorceries
1 x Insult // Injury
1 x Heaven // Earth
2 x Collective Defiance

25 Land (tbd - currently thinking 3/4 Wilds, 3 Hubs, 4 checklands, rest basics)

Most of the deck I like, but there are some things that need to prove their worth. Idk about Bloodlust Inciter. On paper, I lurve the thought of giving the rest of my creature drops haste. In practice I think I'll prob hate that he doesn't have haste himself and fear he'll just be eating removal before he can do The Lord's Work. Then again, that's removal that doesn't eat my bigger guys so maybe that's fine.

If he goes, I'll be considering some Rec Sages. Really wish we'd gotten that green hate spell w/ cycling. I'd rather not cluster my 3 spot too much, but whatareyougonnado. Another option might be Copter. 3d flying is well and good, but the filtering is what's nagging at me more tbh. Think I want to try to find my 1-of bombs on curve.

I went back and forth on both copies of insult // injury. Double d with Charioteers in play is what I want to do, but I also thought Heaven might be important (along with the aforementioned worry about overcrowding the 3 spot) - so I split the difference and went 1 and 1. If I//I is the ridiculousness I suspect it may be, this could go to 2.

I went with big Chandra over little Chandra because my thinking is I'd like to be able to swing for lethal with her tokens T6. Just drooling over the thought of following her up next turn with both sides of I//I and team swing with elemental tokens. Maybe having smaller Chandra would be better for the deck, idk.

Went w/ Collective Defiance over Exquisite Firecraft because utility. Want that bit of reach tho.

Thought about Red God, but I don't know how I'll be w/ getting hand low enough reliably enough. It'd be nice to turn on Rhonas without using her ability (have some ways but could always use more). I'm just worried he'd just be inactive and not contributing too often, so he's not in V1.

I also really wanted to run Zendikar Incarnate for fun w/ Inciter and Charioteer, but I'm trying to be a little Spike with this build so that's for a different deck. Contrary to popular belief, I can exorcise restraint on occasion. Maybe. Maybe.

If your goal is dealt, why run Mouth?

Rough Land:
3 x Aether Hub
2 x Cinder Glade
2 x Rootbound Crag
9 x Forest
9 x Mountain

DJ0045 wrote:

Rough Land:
3 x Aether Hub
2 x Cinder Glade
2 x Rootbound Crag
9 x Forest
9 x Mountain

Looks strong indeed DJ. Considering Samut being a mythic, and being on top of your curve, I think I'd make room for a Battlements in the land section for a chance to turn on Haste sooner. Assuming you'd only madness the Temper you're left with only the Manticore requiring double colors, and even that one can be embalmed with just the 1 red. There's no double green at all in the deck, so taking out a Forest could still work.

I totally disagree Elk, and that's rare for a post of yours... let me explain:

In this deck, we have no vehicle synergies, and most of the creatures we'd tap are actually higher power than the vehicles. This is a ground game deck, and it's actually big enough, and fast enough to give vehicles decks pause. Putting vehicles in would actually slow it down - assuming this deck is viable at all. If not, then vehicles would be better in Rakdos as before (or the more popular Mardu). In other words, play vehicles in the vehicle colors, imo.

Other note: insult // injury looks good to me too (maybe better than my 3/3 idea, tbh), and it should 100% work with fling.

I totally disagree Elk

In this deck, we have no vehicle synergies, and most of the creatures we'd tap are actually higher power than the vehicles. This is a ground game deck, and it's actually big enough, and fast enough to give vehicles decks pause. Putting vehicles in would actually slow it down - assuming this deck is viable at all. If not, then vehicles would be better in Rakdos as before (or the more popular Mardu). In other words, play vehicles in the vehicle colors, imo.

Other note: insult // injury looks good to me too (maybe better than my 3/3 idea, tbh), and it should 100% work with fling.

@elk, my only issue is there's no reason to switch away from Rakdos for vehicles. It's just a better shell. This deck is only good if it beats Rakdos (or Mardu for the non-believers), by playing a different game.

I've got insult to injury in my OP list. Also talked about how I'll likely take it up to max copies if it plays like I think here. We'll all be running that trample giving girl, so insult will make for some absurd blowouts in tandem w/ her. Initially I'm viewing it as a 1-of finisher, but if it's as good as I'm thinking it could be then I'll want both copies.

Even in a worst case scenario where you're in top deck mode without much board presence to profit from insult alone, you can cast both modes to deal 4 to face and 4 to a creature. That's not bad at all.

I think Fling (or the manticore) is worth considering at least. If I decide to work the 4/3 Minotaur into my version (which seems reasonably likely the more I think about it), I will consider Fling more. Maybe doesn't make the cut, but I don't think it'd be terrible to include.

Author:	The Secret of TIMH [ Thu Apr 20, 2017 1:14 am ]
Post subject:	[BREWING] Gruul Midrange Beatdown
When considering what do do with Naya Zoomans (having accepted that lack of fastlands means the faster version I wanted to build wouldn't work), I realized the version I wanted to try more was better off ditching white. I really wanted beatdown, so gimme some Gruul. V2 23 Creatures 2 x Sylvan Advocate 1 x Duskwatch Recruiter 3 x Voltaic Brawler 3 x Bloodrage Brawler 3 x Khenra Charioteer 2 x Prowling Sepopard 2 x Tireless Tracker 1 x Nissa, Vastwood Seer 1 x Rhonas the Indomitable 2 x Heart-Piercer Manticore 1 x Samut, Voice of Dissent 2 x Glorybringer 4 Planeswalkers 1 x Arlinn Kord 1 x Chandra, Torch of Defiance 1 x Nissa, Vital Force 1 x Chandra, Flamecaller 2 Artifacts 1 x Heart of Kiran 1 x Skysovereign, Consule Flagship 4 Instants 2 x Harnessed Lightning 2 x Blossoming Defense 2 Sorceries 1 x Insult // Injury 1 x Heaven // Earth 25 Land 2 x Cinder Glade 2 x Rootbound Craig 4 x Timber Gorge 9 x Mountain 8 x Forest Notible changes from V1: -Cut the 1 drop that gives haste in favor of betterbeaters. Don't think he lives long enough to do work like I want. -Upped the # of 4 power creatures. Turn on Rhonas w/o needing her ability. Make sure I'm trampling more. Was a tough call b/w Wilds for Trackers and Timber Gorge for double colors. Thinking getting my 13 double colors cards supported on time is more important than extra clues off 2 Trackers. Plus w/ no T1 plays I'd rather drop a Gorge than crack a Wilds then. Hubs didn't make the cut as there's not enough energy support to use them more than once and I need my colors. W/o hubs, Harnessed Lightnings a bit less attractive and I might change them out later. In now to answer T2 Copter. V1 22 Creatures 3 x Bloodlust Inciter 2 x Sylvan Advocate 2 x Duskwatch Recruiter 3 x Voltaic Brawler 3 x Khenra Charioteer 2 x Tireless Tracker 1 x Nissa, Vastwood Seer 1 x Rhonas the Indomitable 2 x Bristling Hydra 1 x Samut, Voice of Dissent 2 x Glorybringer 3 Planeswalkers 1 x Arlinn Kord 1 x Nissa, Vital Force 1 x Chandra, Flamecaller 6 Instants 3 x Harnessed Lightning 3 x Blossoming Defense 4 Sorceries 1 x Insult // Injury 1 x Heaven // Earth 2 x Collective Defiance 25 Land (tbd - currently thinking 3/4 Wilds, 3 Hubs, 4 checklands, rest basics) Most of the deck I like, but there are some things that need to prove their worth. Idk about Bloodlust Inciter. On paper, I lurve the thought of giving the rest of my creature drops haste. In practice I think I'll prob hate that he doesn't have haste himself and fear he'll just be eating removal before he can do The Lord's Work. Then again, that's removal that doesn't eat my bigger guys so maybe that's fine. If he goes, I'll be considering some Rec Sages. Really wish we'd gotten that green hate spell w/ cycling. I'd rather not cluster my 3 spot too much, but whatareyougonnado. Another option might be Copter. 3d flying is well and good, but the filtering is what's nagging at me more tbh. Think I want to try to find my 1-of bombs on curve. I went back and forth on both copies of insult // injury. Double d with Charioteers in play is what I want to do, but I also thought Heaven might be important (along with the aforementioned worry about overcrowding the 3 spot) - so I split the difference and went 1 and 1. If I//I is the ridiculousness I suspect it may be, this could go to 2. I went with big Chandra over little Chandra because my thinking is I'd like to be able to swing for lethal with her tokens T6. Just drooling over the thought of following her up next turn with both sides of I//I and team swing with elemental tokens. Maybe having smaller Chandra would be better for the deck, idk. Went w/ Collective Defiance over Exquisite Firecraft because utility. Want that bit of reach tho. Thought about Red God, but I don't know how I'll be w/ getting hand low enough reliably enough. It'd be nice to turn on Rhonas without using her ability (have some ways but could always use more). I'm just worried he'd just be inactive and not contributing too often, so he's not in V1. I also really wanted to run Zendikar Incarnate for fun w/ Inciter and Charioteer, but I'm trying to be a little Spike with this build so that's for a different deck. Contrary to popular belief, I can exorcise restraint on occasion. Maybe. Maybe. Thoughts? Ideas? Criticisms?

Author:	DJ0045 [ Thu Apr 20, 2017 9:39 am ]
Post subject:	Re: [BREWING] Gruul Midrange Beatdown
Let's Trade notes, Timh 4 x Insolent Neonate 3 x Bloodrage Brawler 3 x Harnessed Lightning 4 x Fiery Temper 2 x Lathnu Hellion 1 x Hazoret the Fervent 2 x Heart-Piercer Manticore 3 x Exemplar of Strength 3 x Defiant Greatmaw 2 x Mouth // Feed 1 x Rhonas the Indomitable 2 x Honored Hydra 3 x Voltaic Brawler 1 x Arlinn Kord 1 x Samut, Voice of Dissent Rough Land: 3 x Aether Hub 2 x Cinder Glade 2 x Rootbound Crag 9 x Forest 9 x Mountain I think this is faster, by a long shot. I'm definitely interested in Kendra Charioteer though, so let me know how that goes. Defiant Greatmaw looks like a great card, btw, turns Exemplar of Strength completely on on turn 3 (edit: this makes it a 3/3 on t3, not a 4/4 until turn 4, sorry). And of course, if you don't want to do that, you can put counters on Insolent Neonate - and I think sac the vamp in response - or just lose it, we're cool with that result. Also, Putting Counters on a Hellion is no big deal on the turn it was going away. The two embalm cards, as well as Mouth // feed are in the deck as options to discard without concern, Feed should draw tons in this deck... I think the reasonable floor is 2 cards, but it could easily be 4 or more. I think this build has serious tier 1 potential, I can't wait to really test it. Cards I'm still seriously considering: 2 x Impetuous Devils 2 x Glorybringer 2 x Prowling Serpopard Which all may be worth running depending on meta, and how a couple of cards perform.

Author:	divinevert [ Thu Apr 20, 2017 9:46 am ]
Post subject:	Re: [BREWING] Gruul Midrange Beatdown
If your goal is dealt, why run Mouth?

Author:	DJ0045 [ Thu Apr 20, 2017 9:49 am ]
Post subject:	Re: [BREWING] Gruul Midrange Beatdown
divinevert wrote: If your goal is dealt, why run Mouth? Not sure what you meant... By I'm taking it as, if your goal is max damage, why run mouth? Legit question, IMO. Right now, I'm just testing this in goldfish mode, and consequently I allow for no inefficiency in the deck - e.g.: I want to see that I have good cards to discard, etc... The card draw is legitimate, so it feels about right. In the future, that's the slot that Serpopard might take - which is a clear increase in power, from the perspective of creatures. All of that said, there isn't anything wrong with a 3/3 for 3.

Author:	Haven_pt [ Thu Apr 20, 2017 9:59 am ]
Post subject:	Re: [BREWING] Gruul Midrange Beatdown
Not too far from my Gruul build, even though mine is more about testing cards right now. I totally agree that Gruul has more than enough power to get rid of white and simplify the mana. I still think bloodmist may be good here and Bloodlust inciters are just what this deck needs for exactly the reasons you say.

No Goblins Allowed http://862838.jrbdt8wd.asia/

[BREWING] Gruul Midrange Beatdown http://862838.jrbdt8wd.asia/viewtopic.php?f=61&t=18544	Page 1 of 9

Author:	DJ0045 [ Thu Apr 20, 2017 11:53 am ]
Post subject:	Re: [BREWING] Gruul Midrange Beatdown
My only thought pre testing, is that card draw = reach in this deck. But yeah, fair point. I think mouth has great card potential - I could be wrong, but I want to try it first. As of right now, the mini synergies feel like they are super powerful, but again, until we have the cards I won't know.

Author:	elk [ Thu Apr 20, 2017 11:23 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: [BREWING] Gruul Midrange Beatdown
I'm just brain storming....and since I don't know the cards well enough by name yet (and it's easier to use the hyperlinks), I'll post this here while brewing: 1 x Heart of Kiran 3 x Bloodrage Brawler 3 x Voltaic Brawler 2 x Sylvan Advocate 3 x Khenra Charioteer 2 x Tireless Tracker 2 x Prowling Serpopard 1 x Rhonas the Indomitable 1 x Chandra, Torch of Defiance 1 x Arlinn Kord 1 x Samut, Voice of Dissent 1 x Nissa, Vital Force ? Duskwatch Recruiter (probably +1 or 2?) ?? Skysovereign, Consul Flagship Chandra, Flamecaller Glorybringer Harsh Mentor Walking Ballista Blossoming Defense Reclamation Sage/ can't believe no Manglehorn ??!? Lifecrafter's Bestiary 21 of 35/36/37? 2- 9 3- 8 (6) 4- 2 (4) 5- 2 (4) /cars? /fling? /buff? /draw? / and reshape? - Gideon of the Trials/ Gideon, Ally of Zendikar/ Cast Out / and reshape? - Fatal Push/ Scrapheap Scrounger to go with potential cars support and Unlicensed Disintegration don't forget to add/consider Removal package to suit K...need a break...fml elk

Author:	BounceBurnBuff [ Fri Apr 21, 2017 5:21 am ]
Post subject:	Re: [BREWING] Gruul Midrange Beatdown
Looks like this will be an archetype to watch, Dev put up a standard version earlier today. Looks pretty close to what you guys are brewing up.

Author:	HarutoSato [ Fri Apr 21, 2017 5:46 am ]
Post subject:	Re: [BREWING] Gruul Midrange Beatdown
DJ0045 wrote: Rough Land: 3 x Aether Hub 2 x Cinder Glade 2 x Rootbound Crag 9 x Forest 9 x Mountain Looks strong indeed DJ. Considering Samut being a mythic, and being on top of your curve, I think I'd make room for a Battlements in the land section for a chance to turn on Haste sooner. Assuming you'd only madness the Temper you're left with only the Manticore requiring double colors, and even that one can be embalmed with just the 1 red. There's no double green at all in the deck, so taking out a Forest could still work.

Author:	DJ0045 [ Fri Apr 21, 2017 9:25 am ]
Post subject:	Re: [BREWING] Gruul Midrange Beatdown
HarutoSato wrote: DJ0045 wrote: Rough Land: 3 x Aether Hub 2 x Cinder Glade 2 x Rootbound Crag 9 x Forest 9 x Mountain Looks strong indeed DJ. Considering Samut being a mythic, and being on top of your curve, I think I'd make room for a Battlements in the land section for a chance to turn on Haste sooner. Assuming you'd only madness the Temper you're left with only the Manticore requiring double colors, and even that one can be embalmed with just the 1 red. There's no double green at all in the deck, so taking out a Forest could still work. I didn't really evaluate the land yet... but I totally agree that there may be room for utility lands in the deck. I think the deck has a lot of legs to be high tier, but until I get to take it for a walk in ranked, I really won't know. All I know right now is that it's a very consistent t5 goldfish, which is what I usually target in duels, and I'm pretty sure it can attack into virtually any deck it's likely to face.

Author:	elk [ Fri Apr 21, 2017 4:14 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: [BREWING] Gruul Midrange Beatdown
insult // injury would probably be great here too (can see this making the cut). I wonder if it works with Fling? I'm going to have to test when the set drops but the /cars support (copter/harvester) would work here and so would the black splash for push, scrounger and desintigration. elk

Author:	DJ0045 [ Fri Apr 21, 2017 4:23 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: [BREWING] Gruul Midrange Beatdown
I totally disagree Elk, and that's rare for a post of yours... let me explain: In this deck, we have no vehicle synergies, and most of the creatures we'd tap are actually higher power than the vehicles. This is a ground game deck, and it's actually big enough, and fast enough to give vehicles decks pause. Putting vehicles in would actually slow it down - assuming this deck is viable at all. If not, then vehicles would be better in Rakdos as before (or the more popular Mardu). In other words, play vehicles in the vehicle colors, imo. Other note: insult // injury looks good to me too (maybe better than my 3/3 idea, tbh), and it should 100% work with fling.

Author:	Eonblueapocalypse [ Fri Apr 21, 2017 4:33 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: [BREWING] Gruul Midrange Beatdown
DJ0045 wrote: I totally disagree Elk, and that's rare for a post of yours... let me explain: In this deck, we have no vehicle synergies, and most of the creatures we'd tap are actually higher power than the vehicles. This is a ground game deck, and it's actually big enough, and fast enough to give vehicles decks pause. Putting vehicles in would actually slow it down - assuming this deck is viable at all. If not, then vehicles would be better in Rakdos as before (or the more popular Mardu). In other words, play vehicles in the vehicle colors, imo. Other note: insult // injury looks good to me too (maybe better than my 3/3 idea, tbh), and it should 100% work with fling. No, don't play Insult//Injury, it is just a terrible card..... No, I am not at all trying to dissuade people from running this card because it crushes all my Foggy hopes and dreams.

Author:	elk [ Fri Apr 21, 2017 10:33 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: [BREWING] Gruul Midrange Beatdown
DJ0045 wrote: I totally disagree Elk DJ0045 wrote: In this deck, we have no vehicle synergies, and most of the creatures we'd tap are actually higher power than the vehicles. This is a ground game deck, and it's actually big enough, and fast enough to give vehicles decks pause. Putting vehicles in would actually slow it down - assuming this deck is viable at all. If not, then vehicles would be better in Rakdos as before (or the more popular Mardu). In other words, play vehicles in the vehicle colors, imo. Other note: insult // injury looks good to me too (maybe better than my 3/3 idea, tbh), and it should 100% work with fling. I don't think the vehicle synergy needs to be high for it to be effective. The value of the individual vehicles themselves are typically strong enough without having pilots/synergies that benefit. The power level is fairly on par too. The majority of cards I've listed are 3 or 4 power which is similar to the vehicle options. The problems I have (and why I was saying it needs testing) is what I think you're saying too, the potential tempo loss and the new meta. The deck might be fine just putting out more beaters and swinging instead of dropping a vehicle (especially if the opponent blows you out with removal/bounce/flash etc). The meta also could shift to control which would make vehicles worse (again due to tempo as well as speed). We didn't get all the artifact hate though (which I assumed we would) so that's something to consider. Fleetwheel Cruiser might still be a good option though. A haste/trample beatstick (similar to the Glorybringer consideration) might be worth testing. Same for the Skyship which is a win condition in it's own right. I still haven't figured out how high this curve should go (cause I want to jam Chandra, Flamecaller in) and what goldfish turns we should be expecting. Right now I'm stuck on the removal/interaction suite. There are a couple red considerations but they're just out classed by several other colors. It's part of why I was thinking the vehicle/artifact support to make a 3rd color like better. I still want to see how the deck does with Insult // Injury and possibly Fling (or any other red burn that can go to the face). I just wish Insult wasn't rare. Still, the deck might not need much interaction to get it's wins and could be played with the idea that the opponent has to answer. As I was listing in my brainstorming above, these are all options to test in this particular deck to round it out and I'm sure it'll get modified as the meta clears up. I'm definitely looking forward to testing this list though (and totally resent TIMH for posting a similar list up first!!). elk

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Author:	The Secret of TIMH [ Fri Apr 21, 2017 11:24 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: [BREWING] Gruul Midrange Beatdown
I've got insult to injury in my OP list. Also talked about how I'll likely take it up to max copies if it plays like I think here. We'll all be running that trample giving girl, so insult will make for some absurd blowouts in tandem w/ her. Initially I'm viewing it as a 1-of finisher, but if it's as good as I'm thinking it could be then I'll want both copies. Even in a worst case scenario where you're in top deck mode without much board presence to profit from insult alone, you can cast both modes to deal 4 to face and 4 to a creature. That's not bad at all. I think Fling (or the manticore) is worth considering at least. If I decide to work the 4/3 Minotaur into my version (which seems reasonably likely the more I think about it), I will consider Fling more. Maybe doesn't make the cut, but I don't think it'd be terrible to include.

Author:	DJ0045 [ Sat Apr 22, 2017 12:10 am ]
Post subject:	Re: [BREWING] Gruul Midrange Beatdown
@elk, my only issue is there's no reason to switch away from Rakdos for vehicles. It's just a better shell. This deck is only good if it beats Rakdos (or Mardu for the non-believers), by playing a different game.

Author:	zzmorg82 [ Sat Apr 22, 2017 12:28 am ]
Post subject:	Re: [BREWING] Gruul Midrange Beatdown
DJ0045 wrote: @elk, my only issue is there's no reason to switch away from Rakdos for vehicles. It's just a better shell. This deck is only good if it beats Rakdos (or Mardu for the non-believers), by playing a different game. Explain how Rakdos Vehicles is better than Mardu Vehicles.

Author:	elk [ Sat Apr 22, 2017 12:30 am ]
Post subject:	Re: [BREWING] Gruul Midrange Beatdown
The Secret of TIMH wrote: I've got insult to injury in my OP list. Also talked about how I'll likely take it up to max copies if it plays like I think here. We'll all be running that trample giving girl, so insult will make for some absurd blowouts in tandem w/ her. Initially I'm viewing it as a 1-of finisher, but if it's as good as I'm thinking it could be then I'll want both copies. Even in a worst case scenario where you're in top deck mode without much board presence to profit from insult alone, you can cast both modes to deal 4 to face and 4 to a creature. That's not bad at all. I think Fling (or the manticore) is worth considering at least. If I decide to work the 4/3 Minotaur into my version (which seems reasonably likely the more I think about it), I will consider Fling more. Maybe doesn't make the cut, but I don't think it'd be terrible to include. Manticore is a good call too. I don't think either of the options will need to do insane amounts of damage to finish games (I guess testing will tell ). and yeah, I think Insult will be a fun card to test here with quite a few combinations. DJ0045 wrote: @elk, my only issue is there's no reason to switch away from Rakdos for vehicles. It's just a better shell. This deck is only good if it beats Rakdos (or Mardu for the non-believers), by playing a different game. I don't want to mislead you and say every car should make the cut nor am I trying to say this should be a vehicle specific deck. I'm just considering that several vehicles are solid in a lot of decks (look at the tourney - off the top of my head was Mobius with a token deck using things like Harvester) and help support a deck's synergy (like Cultivator's Caravan if I tried a version) or improved our odds against the meta (Harvester answers a lot of aggro decks). It's just they are strong cards covering a wide range of situations. I will likely test variations but I'm like you though and leaning towards a beat down plan because and I'm worried about where control will land this season. Heart-Piercer Manticore looks promising too and like the call. Ugh is the set here yet? elk