We didn't conclude this after testing, but we only spent one day of really harsh grinding together to determine this.... we assumed/deduced other things based on logic and ladder play.

Our results showed that even UR control was not particularly fav to beat certain obvious aggro archetypes, and by extension, slower permutations of the same archetype should have similar issues.

We didn't end up being in time to submit, so we are just armchair coaching Maybe our testing was a bit limited... then again, I see very few aggro lists submitted of the relentless powerful nature like we were throwing at eachother during that session.

I had positive results vs. Gruul Haste, Rakdos Vehicles, and Orzhov Zombies. Nothing that suggested that it was a lockdown situation, but the additional solutions to vehicles and the ability to actually SWEEP the other decks were very solid. Also, most lists aren't really getting off the ground turn 1, which really helps us.

Maybe the tourney will bear out different results, but I've got alot of testing under my belt with various control decks which made me believe that Esper was the best hedged answer.

I really can't see Esper standing up to a good aggro list and player without removal in the 2 mana slot. I certainly don't think 3 fatal pushes are enough. Magma spray is also very relevant in the current meta.
3 Impulse
2 Magma Spray
3 Censor's
2 Essence Scatters
3 Harnessed lighting

This was the removal package pre turn 3 we were running ( I was also running 2 BA but that was intended to be used post turn 4 because white is only a splash ). That is hella faster and more consistent than any early removal package Esper can turn out. But can you believe even with this package the Aggro lists were somehow pulling through more often then not. Mind you, it wasn't one sided or anything , the matches were close and weren't easy to play but it was surprising how resilient a good aggro list + skilled player could be against such a aggro hating control deck.

The new UR(w) control is the best control deck for the last season meta.

Vert beat me to a lot of the points I was going to mention (primarily about the non-viability of dual color builds). If the real question is, should you run black or red... well I think there is a good case to be made for black.

Mana:
- My esper build needs BB for Ob (who gets played late), and languish. If you ran radiant flames instead of languish... well that's debatable. Sure, you can play it with 2 colors, but languish can hit an extra toughness. I might give you a slight edge to radiant flames here, but it's very small.

- Manlands: I'll take lifegain anyday in this sort of deck. Esper wins here.

That's... really the only mana difference between UBw and URw. It's not a huge deal.

Removal:
- Ignoring sweepers (mentioned above) we're talking about anguished, push, grasp, murder vs red answers. I love fatal push, it's really not hard to trigger revolt between our EWs and clues from confirm. Sure, magma spray is good sometimes and fiery impulse is great... but red is all burn. By running black we get some situational removal (like push) and some hard removal like murder or even anguished unmaking. I have a hard time buying the argument that fiery impulse is enough of an improvement over push to justify losing anguished unmaking.

Finishers:
- Lili, ob, soren vs chandra and shahili. No contest for me here. While they can all finish a game, Lili comes out fast and provides reliable board control, while ob and soren provide card advantage and board control. This advantage part is key (at least to how I play). Absolutely no contest here for me, black carries it. (Yes yes, enigma drake is cool, but it's vulnerable to a lot of stuff).

Sideboard:
- This is also pretty onesided, dead weight, scarab feast, complete disregard, never // return, unburden (don't knock it in a mirror, it also cycles), we just have more options with black.



Edit (posted while I posted):



If you're really that worried, black has dead weight, trial of ambition (grasp if you want to rely on BB) and blue has aether meltdown, tightening coils, and even ice over (plus compulsory rest in white, as well as BA like you mentioned). It just think it's super disingenuous to say that esper doesn't have enough answers at CMC 2 or less if it really decides it needs them.

you missed out the best planeswalker Nahiri the Harbinger, but esper is of course better than jeskai in AKH season. i dont think there's an argument at all on this.

A deck with that removal package is going to get beat to hell by any deck that isn't hyper aggro.

grixis is better than both

I would say that grixis is worse than both. There is not really need for red and black together, while white add few useful cards to esper and jeskai.

Agreed, the only time that makes sense is post sideboard, but... as I pointed out above, UBw has plenty to choose from at low CMC that we could sideboard in as well.


As for grixis... lol. It just can't deal with resolved threats effectively enough. I really don't think white is optional for this type of build. It gives you reliable exile effects and reliable lifegain.

I said that's "pre turn 3" removal not the only removal. We've got counters , BA , Castout , Tower(if you want) ... plenty of answers for later.

I really don't see your argument. What decks are you talking about ? Slower decks get absolutely rofl stomped.

Can I see your list? It looks like an awful lot of the deck committed to removal, so if it's a 60 card deck, there are going to be concessions elsewhere.

grixis is still better. Without playing all the push lightning censor spray grasp all together I don't see a how control beats aggro?!

If you're running that much fast stuff, you have that many fewer draw spells, real counterspells, or finishers. Midrange, grindy, efficiency stuff is going to be harder and your control mirror (like vs one of our esper lists) is terrible.

You are missing the point. Even with that remoal package, the deck still got a convincingly negative record vs both gruul haste (tuned by light, and boy did he do a good job at it) and rakdos (both madness and vehicle versions).

Our thesis is simply that such a removal package cannot run a positive record vs a skilled pilot and a good builder playing aggro, Esper is not even on the table.

We'll see how it plays out. I expect all lists to end up with better than .500 records when this tourney is through. Post-board, I don't see how aggro can really win.

Push, BA, aether meltdown, censor, pleanty of options. Honestly, blessed alliance is crazy good in these sorts of lists. I'd run w for just BA and anguished alone (the fact that soren is such a nice fit and we get castout is just gravy).

that i agree. post sideboard is a different story and the only reason people play control.

But that's because Gruul lists are powering through your removal, because I'm guessing you are missing a serious counter suite to effectively cut their legs off late game.

any time control had to use anguish or cast out against aggro, it was not far from losing i suppose. blessed is the only real goodie in white.