I'm not making that argument, although it's valid against him too. I still think he's obviously better than Avacyn in this deck. While neither is very well protected, he gives me zombies every time I kill and don't exile, which is all the time. The life gain is relevant. He can grow quite large in certain circumstances.

Avacyn on the other hand flashes in to give protection to nothing, then probably never flips. Don't get me wrong Serra Angel is still a great card, but it's a Serra angel here.

In my more aggro ish decks, she is an absolute all star. (Already in Coexists deck she make way more sense, but IMO that deck is approaching tempo rather than control).

Saying "she does 4 damage before removal" would be the equivalent of me saying "Kalitas made one token before removal" if he even did that. Since he lacks flash or protection on ETB (indestructible Avacyn clause) he could eat the same Declaration in Stone Avacyn would and achieve even less. Granted, he synergises more with this deck, I just would be eager to drop one card elsewhere to include 4 hasted damage with a LOT of upside.

EDIT: Coexists deck is control, no doubt. There aren't enough immediate beaters to call it tempo. It controls USING tempo yes (lots of bounce spells) but Tempo is all about winning fast whilst setting the opp back. That deck does not win fast.

Just as an example, I wouldn't run all 4 copies of Dead Weight, so -1 Dead Weight (dead card fast with Always Watching around) and +1 Avacyn. Boom, you immediately increased the deck's threat level.

I think the madness package of my dimir deck deserves another think too.... I'm not having a 90% winrate with it or anything, but if I have a decent hand, the decks i cited need the nuts / missplays from my part (not an easy deck to play) / or topdeck into topdeck into topdeck to beat it reliably.

I just lost a game with it vs planeswalker dec. I was up vs t3 nissa on the play. Fought through 2 radiant flames an outburst, a spires; a chandra, a sorin, a nahiri (which exiled my first ormendahl), STILL got to flip second Ormendahl. Opponent, out of cards, then proceeded to topdeck in order : Archangel avacyn to block ormendahl. Angelic Purge to exile Ormendahl, fiery impule for my jace, then oath of chandra for my scholar whilst I drew all lands for the rest of the game. **** retarded.

Other losses vs these hurdurrr decks involve them windmill slamming kozi or ulamog into 3 open mana when I have 5 counterspells in deck and none in hand. Had some mouthbreather do it to me twice in a row in top 20 cards. Skilled victories !
Playing a deck like this is alot of fun, but you get very salty when the opponent just lucks his way out of it; since you have to work so hard for your wins.

Maybe that explains my salt levels. Control decks are my thing, and if all of my outplaying and outsmarting you results in a top-decked Firecraft or something, you have absolutely earned my contempt.

It all pays of when you draw a card with scholar, and discard Welcome to the Fold, stealing their attacking Gideon, ally of Zendikar

I don't know if I want 2 of em, but the funny stories with this card are starting to rack up. Yesterday, stole a Matter Reshaper at instant speed, blocking an attacking Displacer (opponent foolishly played his reshaper pre combat) , both dudes die, I reveal top card. Jace, Vryn's Prodigy Valuegasm !

Any time I see someone not including Avacyn in any kind of White deck I question myself if said person has played with the card.

@Rabble

Told you Fold you be good

Lol at Serra Angel comparison

True, Avacyn would be another threat, but considering the lack of synergy is she the best threat? I'm not sure. Like I said, fully half of what she does is irrelevant in this deck. As for wether the deck needs more threats in the first place, I'm not sure. You could use the same argument all the way until you run 20-24 creatures, but that wouldn't be right. If I decide to run more threats I'll strongly consider call the Gatewatch to up my PW count. Speaking of which, I could also see cutting Kalitas for the same reason.

That wasn't an attempt to discredit wecoexist's deck, which I really enjoyed. But it's definitely more tempo than control. It wins by dropping an early threat and grinding the opponent to death. That's awesome, I'm a huge aggro control/tempo player, and I see it in that category - I'm looking at the deck as a template when I go back and tweak UW humans/fliers. If it came across as me not liking the deck, that wasn't the intent. It's just not what I was trying to make.

This is going to be a fun podcast.

(Just took a quick trek over to mtgtop8 to see who plays her, and in what decks... Shocker, she's all over the leader board, and exclusively - thus far - in creature heavy decks - I am ready for the discussion).

The AI played Avacyn on me last night and then killed one of its own creatures to wipe my board... I was like wtf happened to T4 Griffin stupid try hard AI!

Ok, here's where the gloves come off DJ

In the first top 8, notorious for ALWAYS BEING AGGRO HEAVY, of a new set before control figures out what it needs to build around. You're using that as a basis for judgement when the only thing remotely coming close to a control deck is U/R "Not-Storm"?

BOOOO!!! BOOOOO!!!

Also, WeCo's deck runs 2 x TITI and that's it until turn 4. Unless you think Reflector Mage makes a good "early threat"

Reflector Mage is the best early threat in duels. (not really, but it's way up there)

Anyway, enough of this... I'm excited for the discussion, not the endless online misunderstandings.

(Nah just kidding... Gonna jab back now)

The reason, IMO, control players do badly when the new meta begins - they haven't figured out the right threat/removal package for control. I think you're making that mistake right now.

Let's get ready to rummmmmmmmmmmblllllllllllllle

So in other words exactly what I said...



Dude...come ooooooon!!!

EDIT: I'm trying your list atm and it's pretty good...against AI.

Woaaaah!

Hehehe Lolz

How does esper control deal with selesnya eldrazi ramp? That's a lot of what I'm seeing right now on steam rank 25+, just played 3 in a row. Seems black removal like dead weight/murderous compulsion are pretty dead cards in that matchup.

You can take this one DJ

The short answer, is run more/better unconditional removal, if you're seeing ramp, dead weight/compulsion is better vs aggro/midrange. You have to make the choice based on what you are seeing. (Just looking at my list, if I expect more ramp - grasp out, reprisal in - this is just a snap response, we may be able to do much better). Edit: I thought you were talking about grasp. Why is compulsion dead vs ramp?

The longer answer, the fewer early threats they've got, the more time you've got to set up your late game removal and card advantage engines. Any idea where I might find a list to look at. I'm curious to see it - most important question, are they running Plated Crusher?

(Also, have you tried the matchup yet, or is this just an open question?)

Edit: wait how can those cards possibly be dead... Kill the mana creatures. Are they running 0 creatures t1, 2, and 3?

Change of topic: Call the Bloodline as a slow, madness enabling engine in control? Single copy probably, but thoughts?

Double or nothing! I think it has real potential as an early discard outlet for you Murders.

BTW your deck moved up a tier. It beat a rank 1 player running Origins only Golgari Elves. Proud dad moment?