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| How MTG handles superpositions ? http://862838.jrbdt8wd.asia/viewtopic.php?f=56&t=18946 |
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| Author: | UselessCommon [ Sat Jun 10, 2017 5:06 pm ] |
| Post subject: | How MTG handles superpositions ? |
So let's say you have Muraganda Petroglyphs and an enchantment with "Creatures you control with power 4 or greater have flying." You play a 3/3 blank creature. What happens ? (I am 99% sure there could be a similar situation with actual cards, but I'm too lazy to check.) |
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| Author: | Edacade [ Sat Jun 10, 2017 5:23 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: How MTG handles superpositions ? |
Nothing currently in existence gives an ability to creatures with a power or toughness at or above a certain threshold. As such, I can't seem to find anything in the Comp Rules that would give a definitive answer about what happens in the scenario you've given. The closest thing I can find only applies to continuous effects that apply in the same layer, but your example applies in two layers. Comp Rules wrote: 613.7. Within a layer or sublayer, determining which order effects are applied in is sometimes done using a dependency system. If a dependency exists, it will override the timestamp system. 613.7a An effect is said to “depend on” another if (a) it’s applied in the same layer (and, if applicable, sublayer) as the other effect (see rules 613.1 and 613.3); (b) applying the other would change the text or the existence of the first effect, what it applies to, or what it does to any of the things it applies to; and (c) neither effect is from a characteristic-defining ability or both effects are from characteristic-defining abilities. Otherwise, the effect is considered to be independent of the other effect. 613.7b An effect dependent on one or more other effects waits to apply until just after all of those effects have been applied. If multiple dependent effects would apply simultaneously in this way, they’re applied in timestamp order relative to each other. If several dependent effects form a dependency loop, then this rule is ignored and the effects in the dependency loop are applied in timestamp order. 613.7c After each effect is applied, the order of remaining effects is reevaluated and may change if an effect that has not yet been applied becomes dependent on or independent of one or more other effects that have not yet been applied. Based on this, I would say that the creature would be a 3/3 with flying. |
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| Author: | adeyke [ Sat Jun 10, 2017 5:41 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: How MTG handles superpositions ? |
Just follow the layer system (rule 613.1). Petroglyphs is in layer 7c, while your ability is in layer 6 and would thus be applied first. "Creatures you control with power 4 or greater have flying" is an ability that will never exist, because it wouldn't work as people would expect. It would only look at the power of the creature as it exists in layer 6, before any potential effects would modify its P/T. They don't create any abilities the look like they'd be affected by a later layer, since that can't actually happen. So no abilities based on P/T, color based on ability, type based on color, etc. So the creature wouldn't gain flying, but the Petroglyphs would give it +2/+2. It'd be a 5/5 vanilla. |
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| Author: | UselessCommon [ Sun Jun 11, 2017 1:11 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: How MTG handles superpositions ? |
I guess I need a more blatant example. You control two (or three !) copies of  1/1 "As long as this creature don't have Hexproof, other creatures you control have Hexproof." What happens ? (I know this card won't ever be printed, but, again, I am 99% confident something like this IS possible with the current cards.) |
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| Author: | adeyke [ Sun Jun 11, 2017 4:59 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: How MTG handles superpositions ? |
If the effects are in the same layer, it does get more complicated, since the dependency rules Edacade quoted come into play. However, those rules are still just about deciding the order in which the effects are applied. There are situations where this gets very ugly and complicated, but you have indistinguishable creatures with identical effects, so we don't have to worry about that. When it comes to applying the effects, you still never peek ahead or undo an effect that's already been applied. Any qualifiers or conditionals refer to the game state at the point in the layer system the effect is applied. So in this case, when you get to the first effect, the creature associated with that one doesn't have hexproof, so it gives the other creatures hexproof. When you get to the second and third, however, the creature does hexproof, so it doesn't give hexproof to the first creature. |
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| Author: | razorborne [ Mon Jun 12, 2017 2:33 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: How MTG handles superpositions ? |
yeah that just looks like a timestamps thing. whichever one is the oldest won't have hexproof and the others will. to more broadly answer the question, there's never a time when the game is actually trying to apply two static effects at once. it's all sorted out by layers, timestamps, and dependency, so you can't get into a superposition to begin with. 
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| Author: | UselessCommon [ Mon Jun 12, 2017 11:39 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: How MTG handles superpositions ? |
But... What if two sources of static, "contradictory" effects are inserted into the game simultaneously, apply on the same layer and don't depend on something to work ? Like previous example, but creatures were put onto the battlefield by Collected Company *and so the brave UselessCommon continued his noble quest on finding a contradiction in MTG's rules* |
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| Author: | adeyke [ Mon Jun 12, 2017 12:23 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: How MTG handles superpositions ? |
Even if they entered simultaneously, the effects would still be applied sequentially: Quote: 613.6j. If two or more objects would receive a timestamp simultaneously, such as by entering a zone simultaneously or becoming attached simultaneously, the active player determines their relative timestamp order at that time.
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| Author: | Nylon [ Mon Jun 12, 2017 1:05 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: How MTG handles superpositions ? |
The closest thing to a real life example of this is a Darksteel Forge (or any other noncreature artifact) enchanted with two Animate Artifact. Look at that weirdly awesome piece of rules text!  Even though it may look like Animate Artifact's effect shouldn't work at all, it actually works fine thanks to the way layers work.The Animate Artifacts form a dependency loop, the first one to apply turns the forge into a creature, the second one does nothing. Fun times! |
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| Author: | razorborne [ Mon Jun 12, 2017 1:50 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: How MTG handles superpositions ? |
the only way to possibly create one is if a single object does it by itself (say, with the rules text "this creature has flying as long as it doesn't have flying") and even then, the rules don't look back, so it'll just flip the switch when it gets to that point and move on.
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