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Metallic Mimic counters?
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Author:  Flyheight [ Tue May 16, 2017 9:55 pm ]
Post subject:  Metallic Mimic counters?
There's a ruling on gatherer for Metallic Mimic that states the following:
Ruling wrote:
If a creature entering the battlefield won’t have the chosen type until another card’s effect gives it that type after it has entered the battlefield, it won’t enter with a +1/+1 counter. Creatures that have the chosen type due to their own abilities, such as a second Metallic Mimic with the same creature type chosen, will enter with a +1/+1 counter.


For curiosity's sake I have been cruising the comp rules to see where the difference between a creature having it's ability defined by an external source vs being defined by itself causes this difference in the result for the +1/+1 counter replacement effect and I can't find it. Can someone point it out to me?
Thanks.
Author:  Edacade [ Tue May 16, 2017 11:18 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Metallic Mimic counters?
I believe the ruling is referring to stuff like Artificial Evolution or Blades of Velis Vel.

Edit: Although I did find this rule.

Comp Rules wrote:
614.12. Some replacement effects modify how a permanent enters the battlefield. (See rules 614.1c–d.)
Such effects may come from the permanent itself if they affect only that permanent (as opposed to a
general subset of permanents that includes it). They may also come from other sources. To
determine which replacement effects apply and how they apply, check the characteristics of the
permanent as it would exist on the battlefield, taking into account replacement effects that have
already modified how it enters the battlefield (see rule 616.1), continuous effects generated by the
resolution of spells or abilities that changed the permanent’s characteristics on the stack (see rule
400.7a), and continuous effects from the permanent’s own static abilities, but ignoring continuous
effects from any other source that would affect it.


Which means Xenograft also doesn't work. Conspiracy alters the subtype on the stack, so I think it would work.
Author:  adeyke [ Wed May 17, 2017 4:55 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Metallic Mimic counters?
Conspiracy also doesn't work.
Author:  Flyheight [ Wed May 17, 2017 2:59 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Metallic Mimic counters?
Comp Rules wrote:
614.12. Some replacement effects modify how a permanent enters the battlefield. (See rules 614.1c–d.)
Such effects may come from the permanent itself if they affect only that permanent (as opposed to a
general subset of permanents that includes it). They may also come from other sources. To
determine which replacement effects apply and how they apply, check the characteristics of the
permanent as it would exist on the battlefield, taking into account replacement effects that have
already modified how it enters the battlefield (see rule 616.1), continuous effects generated by the
resolution of spells or abilities that changed the permanent’s characteristics on the stack (see rule
400.7a), and continuous effects from the permanent’s own static abilities, but ignoring continuous
effects from any other source that would affect it.

Ah, there we go, that's what I was looking for.

And yes, I also was interpreting the ruling in the gatherer page as referring to something like Xenograft when it talks about an external source.
This ruling is on the gatherer page for Xenograft:
Quote:
Replacement effects that modify creatures of a certain type as they enter the battlefield will apply (or not apply) before you apply Xenograft’s effect. For example, if Warrior is the chosen creature type and you control Bramblewood Paragon, a Runeclaw Bear would not enter the battlefield with an additional +1/+1 counter.

Why wouldn't Conspiracy work? It causes the card to gain the creature type before it even resolves. Which means it should follow the direction of this bolded phrase right?:
Comp Rules wrote:
614.12. Some replacement effects modify how a permanent enters the battlefield. (See rules 614.1c–d.)
Such effects may come from the permanent itself if they affect only that permanent (as opposed to a
general subset of permanents that includes it). They may also come from other sources. To
determine which replacement effects apply and how they apply, check the characteristics of the
permanent as it would exist on the battlefield, taking into account replacement effects that have
already modified how it enters the battlefield (see rule 616.1), continuous effects generated by the
resolution of spells or abilities that changed the permanent’s characteristics on the stack (see rule
400.7a), and continuous effects from the permanent’s own static abilities, but ignoring continuous
effects from any other source that would affect it.

Whatever ruling you give to Conspiracy should also apply to Artificial Evolution right? Since they both grant the subtype while the card is on the stack.

I don't see how Blades of Velis Vel fits into this picture?
Author:  Nylon [ Wed May 17, 2017 3:26 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Metallic Mimic counters?
The rule says "continuous effects generated by the resolution of spells or abilities that changed the permanent’s characteristics on the stack".

Conspiracy's effect is a continuous effect that changed the permanent's characteristics on the stack. But Conspiracy's effect wasn't generated by the resolution of a spell or ability. It's generated by a static ability. Static abilities don't resolve. So Conspiracy's effect is not taken into account.

Artificial Evolution's effect, however, was generated by the resolution of a spell, so it's taken into account.
Author:  Edacade [ Wed May 17, 2017 4:58 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Metallic Mimic counters?
I forgot AE could target spells.
Author:  Flyheight [ Wed May 17, 2017 9:03 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Metallic Mimic counters?
Oh, ok. Cool.

Just for curiosity's sake would anything break catastrophically if the rules allowed replacement effects to check for changes due to continuous effects from external sources?
Author:  Edacade [ Wed May 17, 2017 10:30 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Metallic Mimic counters?
Catastrophically? Doubtful. Although I imagine it would make the explanation for what's happening more difficult to grok in most situations.

I wouldn't be opposed to such a change, though, as I feel that it would be more intuitive for Xenograft and Conspiracy to work with stuff like Metallic Mimic. But changing a rule just for the sake of two cards isn't exactly the most efficient way to do things.
Author:  Flyheight [ Wed May 17, 2017 11:06 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Metallic Mimic counters?
How would it make it more difficult to grok?
Admittedly I'm only thinking of the situation with Xenograft and Conspiracy right now, but I'm having trouble coming up with a counterexample where the answer for the rules working the other way would be unintuitive.
I'm trying to come up with something and the first example I think of is that Painter's Servant could theoretically interact just like xenograft and conspiracy but I don't see any cards that have an etb replacement effect checking for color of the entering permanent so it's moot and also since it works the same way it would similarly be intuitive if I'm thinking about it correctly (which is always up for debate).

I admit that changing the rules to make only a handful of cards function differently is not ideal and I'm sure there was some particular reason why external sources were excluded, but I just can't put my finger on why.
Author:  adeyke [ Thu May 18, 2017 5:05 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Metallic Mimic counters?
Changing the rule would mean that Humility would creatures' stop replacement effects, so they wouldn't get their counters or their choices.
Author:  Edacade [ Thu May 18, 2017 9:01 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Metallic Mimic counters?
Humility always causes headaches.
Author:  Flyheight [ Thu May 18, 2017 6:12 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Metallic Mimic counters?
While making Humility more powerful would not be ideal, would it really be unintuitive?
Author:  astarael7 [ Fri May 19, 2017 2:21 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Metallic Mimic counters?
I don't think there've ever been any Humility interactions I would call "intuitive".

I think the current rule is good because it essentially says that we only have to take into account things that have already (irreversibly) modified the spell, what the spell itself says, and whatever changes we have already applied. That's very concise and chunkable. I don't know that a system which tells us to take into account, well, everything would be better.
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