It is currently Sat Nov 30, 2024 10:35 pm

All times are UTC - 6 hours [ DST ]




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 14 posts ] 
Author Message
 Post subject: Crew 0
PostPosted: Wed Sep 21, 2016 1:38 pm 
Offline
Member
User avatar

Joined: Oct 10, 2015
Posts: 3569
Location: California
Identity: Male
Preferred Pronoun Set: he/him/his/his/himself
If somebody ever made a card with Crew 0, would the following be true?

1) You have to tap something to turn the vehicle into a creature, but
2) That something could be a Wall or something else with power 0

_________________
Is it just me, or does Bruse Tarl look like an 1890s Barnum circus strongman who'd hawk strength tonic patent medicines on the side?


Like this post
Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Crew 0
PostPosted: Wed Sep 21, 2016 1:39 pm 
Offline
Member
User avatar

Joined: Sep 22, 2013
Posts: 7801
Both would be true.

_________________
magicpablo666 wrote:
You fell victim to one of the classic blunders - The most famous of which is "never get involved in an thread with GM_Champion" - but only slightly less well-known is this: "Never go in against AzureShade when card design is on the line!"


Like this post
Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Crew 0
PostPosted: Wed Sep 21, 2016 1:45 pm 
Offline
Member
User avatar

Joined: Oct 09, 2013
Posts: 7454
Location: Mountain View
Preferred Pronoun Set: he/him
AzureShade wrote:
Both would be true.


I disagree. The cost would be "Tap any number of untapped creatures you control with total power 0 or greater." 0 is a valid choice for "any number" and the total power of a group of 0 creatures is 0.

So I think you could activate a "crew 0" ability without tapping anything.

_________________
if someone said this about me i'd make it my signature


Like this post
Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Crew 0
PostPosted: Wed Sep 21, 2016 1:54 pm 
Offline
Member
User avatar

Joined: Sep 22, 2013
Posts: 7801
I don't think you could get away with crewing a vehicle by tapping no creatures. I mean, 0 is still a number right? You would still need to tap something to fulfill "0 or more power."

_________________
magicpablo666 wrote:
You fell victim to one of the classic blunders - The most famous of which is "never get involved in an thread with GM_Champion" - but only slightly less well-known is this: "Never go in against AzureShade when card design is on the line!"


Like this post
Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Crew 0
PostPosted: Wed Sep 21, 2016 2:26 pm 
Offline
Member

Joined: Oct 07, 2015
Posts: 312
I agree with CommanderJim's assessment. "Nothing" is always a valid choice for "any number of [something]", provided the other conditions are met, and the total power of nothing is 0.


Like this post
Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Crew 0
PostPosted: Wed Sep 21, 2016 2:29 pm 
Offline
Member
User avatar

Joined: Sep 22, 2013
Posts: 7801
I would argue (perhaps incorrectly) that the total power of nothing is nothing, which is different from the actual number 0.

_________________
magicpablo666 wrote:
You fell victim to one of the classic blunders - The most famous of which is "never get involved in an thread with GM_Champion" - but only slightly less well-known is this: "Never go in against AzureShade when card design is on the line!"


Like this post
Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Crew 0
PostPosted: Wed Sep 21, 2016 2:59 pm 
Offline
Member
User avatar

Joined: Sep 22, 2013
Posts: 2979
"107.2. If anything needs to use a number that can’t be determined, either as a result or in a calculation, it uses 0 instead."

If you sacrifice a Sword of the Ages with 0 creatures, it deals 0 damage to the target.


Like this post
Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Crew 0
PostPosted: Wed Sep 21, 2016 3:22 pm 
Offline
Member

Joined: Oct 07, 2015
Posts: 312
I don't think we even need that rule. The value of an empty sum is zero.


Like this post
Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Crew 0
PostPosted: Wed Sep 21, 2016 8:32 pm 
Offline
YMtC Pro Tour Champion
User avatar

Joined: Oct 17, 2013
Posts: 3486
Preferred Pronoun Set: He
By convention the empty sum is 0, no reason for Magic to necessarily hold to that convention.

_________________
The cake is a differential manifold with group structure.
Knife Life


Like this post
Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Crew 0
PostPosted: Wed Sep 21, 2016 8:40 pm 
Offline
YMtC Champ '14
YMTC Pro Tour Champion
User avatar

Joined: Jun 04, 2014
Posts: 15599
Location: Freedom
Preferred Pronoun Set: they
Dr_Demento wrote:
By convention the empty sum is 0, no reason for Magic to necessarily hold to that convention.

but if it broke from mathematical convention, one would assume it would tell us somewhere.

:duel:

_________________
I tend to agree with Razor.

Mown wrote:
I'll never again complain about raz's criteria.


Like this post
Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Crew 0
PostPosted: Wed Sep 21, 2016 9:23 pm 
Offline
YMtC Pro Tour Champion
User avatar

Joined: Sep 22, 2013
Posts: 14370
razorborne wrote:
Dr_Demento wrote:
By convention the empty sum is 0, no reason for Magic to necessarily hold to that convention.

but if it broke from mathematical convention, one would assume it would tell us somewhere.

:duel:

(Nonexistent mana costs can't be paid.)

_________________
"Enjoy your screams, Sarpadia - they will soon be muffled beneath snow and ice."

I have a blog. I review anime, and sometimes related media, with an analytical focus.

I'm a (self) published author now! You can find my books on Amazon in Paperback or ebook!
The Accursed, a standalone young adult fantasy adventure.
Witch Hunters, book one of a young adult Scifi-fantasy trilogy.


Like this post
Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Crew 0
PostPosted: Wed Sep 21, 2016 9:27 pm 
Offline
YMtC Champ '14
YMTC Pro Tour Champion
User avatar

Joined: Jun 04, 2014
Posts: 15599
Location: Freedom
Preferred Pronoun Set: they
razorborne wrote:
Dr_Demento wrote:
By convention the empty sum is 0, no reason for Magic to necessarily hold to that convention.

but if it broke from mathematical convention, one would assume it would tell us somewhere.

:duel:

(Nonexistent mana costs can't be paid.)

well, sure, but evermind's converted mana cost is still 0, not N/A.

:duel:

_________________
I tend to agree with Razor.

Mown wrote:
I'll never again complain about raz's criteria.


Like this post
Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Crew 0
PostPosted: Wed Sep 21, 2016 10:43 pm 
Offline
Member
User avatar

Joined: Oct 04, 2015
Posts: 4649
Location: Alchemist's Refuge
Identity: Male
Preferred Pronoun Set: he/him/his/his/himself
If they ever printed a Crew 0 card, I'm sure they would update the rules such that Crew N meant "Tap one or more untapped creatures you control with total power N or greater: This Vehicle becomes an artifact creature until end of turn." I mean, they changed lifelink and deathtouch (both of which started their keyword lives as triggered abilities) so they would work the way they intended for them to work. And I'm pretty sure they intend at least one creature to be tapped for Crew abilities. But as currently worded? I agree you could technically declare an activation of Crew 0 without tapping any creatures.

I have a feeling I'll understand why this topic exists when I check YMtC. :incognito:

_________________
Former Rules Advisor (RA program ended 5-3-16)

Up High, Down Low, Whoops, Too Slow.


Like this post
Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Crew 0
PostPosted: Thu Sep 22, 2016 12:05 am 
Offline
Member
User avatar

Joined: Oct 10, 2015
Posts: 3569
Location: California
Identity: Male
Preferred Pronoun Set: he/him/his/his/himself
Lemme be honest: part of this discussion was meant to determine the viability of of designing a card with Crew 0. It appears said card is not viable.

_________________
Is it just me, or does Bruse Tarl look like an 1890s Barnum circus strongman who'd hawk strength tonic patent medicines on the side?


Like this post
Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 14 posts ] 

All times are UTC - 6 hours [ DST ]


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Jump to:  
Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Group