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Judge Intervention Appropriateness
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Author:  Edacade [ Sat Oct 24, 2015 7:39 pm ]
Post subject:  Judge Intervention Appropriateness
Posted this on the official forums, but I'll post here as well in case everybody from Rules Q&A has already abandoned ship:

Today at Game Day, someone started complaining after the event because a designated Floor Judge was constantly pointing out the complainer's opponent's missed triggers. When approached, the Floor Judge simply said to check section 1.8 of the Tournament Rules.

Section 1.8 reads thus:

Quote:
1.8 Floor Judges

Floor judges are available to players and spectators to answer questions, deal with illegal plays, or assist with reasonable requests. They do not have to be DCI-certified.

Judges will not generally assist players in determining the current game state but can answer questions about the rules, interactions between cards, or provide the Oracle™ wordings of relevant cards. At Regular REL, the judge may assist the player in understanding the game state in the interest of education. If a player wishes to ask his or her question away from the table, the request will usually be honored. Players may not request specific judges to answer their calls, but may request a tournament official to help translate. This request may be honored at the discretion of the original judge.

Judges do not intervene in a game to prevent illegal actions, but do intervene as soon as a rule has been broken or to prevent a situation from escalating.


Having read this, I wonder what exactly a missed trigger counts as. Because reading this section, if a missed trigger is breaking the rules, wouldn't it be okay that the Floor Judge was pointing them out? Or would the missed trigger count as an illegal action, and thus be something the Floor Judge should remain quiet about?
Author:  Edacade [ Sat Oct 24, 2015 8:20 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Judge Intervention Appropriateness
In case it's relevant, the involved cards were Den Protector and Wingmate Roc.
Author:  razorborne [ Sat Oct 24, 2015 8:25 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Judge Intervention Appropriateness
I don't really understand the last line. they don't intervene to prevent rules being broken, but as soon as they are they can intervene, and if they do right away the most likely action is to rewind and put the thing on the stack as-is. I remember hearing something about a system where the way you handle missed triggers is your opponent decides if they go on the stack or not, but I would assume that's only for higher RELs. at something like Game Day they'd probably just rewind, so intervening before or after seems kinda redundant. unless that's not what they would do, which is possible but seems like a bad system.

:duel:
Author:  GrifterMage [ Sat Oct 24, 2015 10:28 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Judge Intervention Appropriateness
That last paragraph isn't trying to draw a distinction between "illegal actions" and "broken rules"--they're not two separate things. What it's saying is that judges don't intervene before bad things happen in order to prevent them from happening in the first place--instead what they do is wait until after bad things have already happened, and clean up the mess. Basically, imagine there's a patch of ice on a sidewalk, and you're walking towards it. A judge is not going to step in before you reach the ice patch and direct you around it so you don't slip, because it's perfectly possible that you wouldn't have slipped. However, if you do slip and start to fall, they'll catch you.

Reminding players about triggers is fine at a Regular-level event, which Game Day is. It's not required for the Judge to do so, and in some stores they won't--it all depends on the type of atmosphere they want to create--but it's fine if they do.
Author:  Edacade [ Sat Oct 24, 2015 10:35 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Judge Intervention Appropriateness
Does it matter if it was the last match to determine who got the Game Day playmat? Cause I remember the guy saying he really wanted the playmat when he was playing against me, so I bet that's probably the main reason he was complaining (felt like the reminders gave his opponent an unfair advantage, perhaps).
Author:  GrifterMage [ Sun Oct 25, 2015 12:57 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Judge Intervention Appropriateness
Edacade wrote:
Does it matter if it was the last match to determine who got the Game Day playmat?
Not at all.

The only thing I can think of that might change things is whether or not the judge had reminded other players of triggers over the course of the day--if this was the only player the judge ever reminded, that could look potentially shady, but even then it might just happen that nobody else was forgetting many triggers.
Author:  Edacade [ Sun Oct 25, 2015 1:44 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Judge Intervention Appropriateness
I don't remember if the Floor Judge reminded anybody else of their triggers. Although the player in question is one of maybe three people who frequent the store that miss triggers on a regular basis. And the guy who was complaining missed at least three "may" triggers in the games he played against me. The general synopsis at my LGS is that if the ability has a "may" nobody is required to point out the missed trigger (under assumption that the player chooses not to use it), but if it doesn't have a "may" it's supposed to be pointed out. Since the guy was making such a big deal about it, I thought I'd ask about it.

Although I should probably mention that everybody understands spectators shouldn't point those things out. Only whoever's designated as a Floor Judge or involved in the game typically does the pointing out. I've been designated Floor Judge on more than a few occasions, and I don't hesitate to point out missed triggers if they aren't "may" abilities (nor do I hesitate to point out when somebody tries to counter a noncreature spell with something that only counters creature spells, and if I ever think a misplay has happened I'm quick to lean over the table to look at the card more closely; annoying habits for me to have, I'm sure). So this doubles as a future reference for whether or not I should do that when I'm Floor Judge.
Author:  Zlehtnoba [ Sat Oct 31, 2015 3:27 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Judge Intervention Appropriateness
Is it possible that not preventing the slip has something to do with shady behaviour? I mean, let's say somebody "forgets" that he has to sacrifice a creature at the beginning of his upkeep. Would the judge simply rewind, or would he penalize the player? Could the opponent request a judge be present after the opponent first forgot?

The other thing you mention is quite interesting. OK, so I know I can't counter your creature with my Negate. But I'll try, I won't be penalized anyway, and now you know I have the counter for your next removal spell and will spend time worrying about whether to play it or not.

I guess I'm just old and cynical, but I think in many cases this sort of behaviour should be penalized. Depends on the experience and excitement level of the player, but forgetting to tap the lands, for example (even though I did it myself in my youth, by mistake), should be penalized.
Author:  chaikov [ Mon Nov 02, 2015 11:41 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Judge Intervention Appropriateness
I've been told judges are expected (?) to establish whether a player genuinely forgot such upkeep sacrifice or purposedly skipped it to save a critter.
As for showing off your Negate, I don't think it's strictly illegal to show your cards to opponent. It's illegal to look, but not to show.

If I'm not mistaking, both these behaviors will get the player a warning.
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