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 Post subject: Revealing and choices
PostPosted: Wed Sep 02, 2015 6:03 pm 
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My opponent has Revelation in play. I cast Stronghold Gambit. How are the choices made? Will one player know the other player's choice before having to make their own? Can the choice be made in secret, such as on a slip of paper?

Any rules quotes to clear this up would be appreciated.

And before anyone says that it doesn't matter, each player would always choose the lowest, let's suppose my hand consists of Nekrataal and Oxidda Scrapmelter while my opponent's hand consists of Juggernaut and Hero of Bladehold.

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 Post subject: Re: Rules Q&A
PostPosted: Wed Sep 02, 2015 6:38 pm 
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Here are the relevant rules on this.

Comprehensive Rules wrote:
101.4. If multiple players would make choices and/or take actions at the same time, the active player (the player whose turn it is) makes any choices required, then the next player in turn order (usually the player seated to the active player’s left) makes any choices required, followed by the remaining nonactive players in turn order. Then the actions happen simultaneously. This rule is often referred to as the “Active Player, Nonactive Player (APNAP) order” rule.
Example: A card reads “Each player sacrifices a creature.” First, the active player chooses a creature he or she controls. Then each of the nonactive players, in turn order, chooses a creature he or she controls. Then all creatures chosen this way are sacrificed simultaneously.

101.4a If an effect has each player choose a card in a hidden zone, such as his or her hand or library, those cards may remain face down as they’re chosen. However, each player must clearly indicate which face-down card he or she is choosing.

101.4b A player knows the choices made by the previous players when he or she makes his or her choice, except as specified in 101.4a.


You have to indicate which card you're choosing. Since that card is already revealed, the properties of the card you chose will be publicly known. Making the choice in secret by writing it down would violate rule 101.4a.

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 Post subject: Re: Rules Q&A
PostPosted: Wed Sep 02, 2015 7:03 pm 
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But is the zone hidden while it is revealed?

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 Post subject: Re: Rules Q&A
PostPosted: Wed Sep 02, 2015 7:06 pm 
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Yep.

Comprehensive Rules wrote:
400.2. Public zones are zones in which all players can see the cards’ faces, except for those cards that some rule or effect specifically allow to be face down. Graveyard, battlefield, stack, exile, ante, and command are public zones. Hidden zones are zones in which not all players can be expected to see the cards’ faces. Library and hand are hidden zones, even if all the cards in one such zone happen to be revealed.

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 Post subject: Re: Rules Q&A
PostPosted: Wed Sep 02, 2015 7:44 pm 
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Thank you for the references.

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 Post subject: Re: Rules Q&A
PostPosted: Thu Sep 03, 2015 4:53 am 
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That kinda ties into a question I have. If your hand is always revealed, perhaps as through the card mentioned above, does it mean you could cast cards such as Belfry Trap for free at anytime?

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 Post subject: Re: Rules Q&A
PostPosted: Thu Sep 03, 2015 5:03 am 
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POSValkir wrote:
That kinda ties into a question I have. If your hand is always revealed, perhaps as through the card mentioned above, does it mean you could cast cards such as Belfry Trap for free at anytime?

NGA Constructed rules questions probably belong somewhere else although I don't really know where, but in short yes. also that wording on Belfry trap is terrifying from a rules perspective. if you despise me, then I brainstorm and draw Belfry Trap off it, can I cast the Trap for free? the game doesn't know, because it doesn't know if all the cards in my hand are the same as the ones that were there when you Despised. they could be, if I put back the other two things I drew, but whether or not I did isn't public information and I can't be forced to reveal it. should really just say "if you revealed your hand this turn".

:duel:

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 Post subject: Re: Rules Q&A
PostPosted: Thu Sep 03, 2015 6:03 am 
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But then it doesn't work with Duress and friends, which I assume is the intent. "Revealed your hand" also has ambiguity: is it referring to your hand, the zone, or the cards in your hand?

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 Post subject: Re: Rules Q&A
PostPosted: Thu Sep 03, 2015 6:12 am 
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razorborne wrote:
NGA Constructed rules questions probably belong somewhere else although I don't really know where

:duel:

Fair enough, although this was a general rules question which happened to be triggered from an NGA card it did spawn a bit of an off-topic conversation. Thanks for the answer.

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 Post subject: Re: Rules Q&A
PostPosted: Thu Sep 03, 2015 6:17 am 
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But then it doesn't work with Duress and friends, which I assume is the intent. "Revealed your hand" also has ambiguity: is it referring to your hand, the zone, or the cards in your hand?
well, I'd argue that ambiguity is better than literal gamebreaking. another example: I have three cards in hand and 8 mana. I pay , reveal rumors of danger, and deal 1 damage to something. after that resolves, I pay , reveal rumors of danger, and deal 1 damage to something else. then I declare Belfry Trap for free. am I cheating?

also, why wouldn't it work with Duress? Duress makes you reveal your hand, so something that asks if you've revealed your hand this turn will say yes if you've been the recipient of a Duress this turn. and "reveal your hand" is standard terminology, so I'm not sure why it would behave any differently in my proposed wording than it does in every other card it's used on. revealing the zone is revealing all the cards in it, it just shifts the emphasis to something you can actually track reliably.

:duel:

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 Post subject: Re: Rules Q&A
PostPosted: Thu Sep 03, 2015 10:44 am 
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We had an NGA Rules Q&A thing but it doesn't really have a lot of activity. Posting in NGA Constructed and Rules probably works since it brings to attention issues in the thread that tracks wording changes.

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