No Goblins Allowed
http://862838.jrbdt8wd.asia/

Magic Duels - Orzhov (Black/White) Decklists
http://862838.jrbdt8wd.asia/viewtopic.php?f=52&t=10300		 Page 1 of 15
Author:  Garren_Windspear [ Thu Jul 09, 2015 5:34 pm ]
Post subject:  Magic Duels - Orzhov (Black/White) Decklists
Orzhov Decklists


Black Cards


White Cards


Multi-Colour Cards


Colourless Cards


Non-Basic Lands
Author:  HenWen [ Fri Jul 10, 2015 11:22 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Magic Origins - Orzhov (Black/White) Decklists
4 x reave soul
4 x perilous myr

3 x fleshbag marauder
1 x liliana, heretical healer
4 x read the bones
2 x solemn offering

1 x archangel of tithes
2 x languish
3 x bitter revelation
1 x erebos's titan

2 x tragic arrogance
2 x hixus, prison warden
3 x cruel revival
1 x necromantic summons

2 x kothophed, soul hoarder

2 x isolated chapel
4 x orzhov guildgate
3 x terramorphic expanse
8 x plains
8 x swamp


This is my idea for high curve control deck. I think this meta will prove to be much slower than people think, and I like the top end of both W and B. The curve is high but with tragic arrogance, hixus, and languish we have 6 pseudo board wipes. The singleton necromantic summons is there to fetch liliana and get erebos' titan back for free. The one thing this deck is really missing is lifegain - the black draw spells will hurt, and I am not sure if I need to put more early blockers in to deal with aggro. The lack of lifegain in a WB deck is quite puzzling to be honest.

Edit - the only lifegain cards I would consider are shadows of the past, bottle gnomes and guardian of meletis. Unfortunately they aren't very good and I can't find the cut. This deck is pure theory at this point, the combination of few early cards + painful card draw may be too much - needs to be tested.

Edit2 - Brodo caught me slipping in dimir guildgates. I guess I subconsciously want to make a UB deck.
Author:  brodo [ Fri Jul 10, 2015 11:33 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Magic Origins - Orzhov (Black/White) Decklists
Dimir Guildgate is supposed to be the Orzhov one right?

A bit of a reach for the lifegain, but Bottle Gnomes was sideboard material at one time. I kind of like Jorubai Murk Lurker for Dimir though, but that's a different deck to talk about.
Author:  Spencer [ Fri Jul 10, 2015 11:57 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Magic Origins - Orzhov (Black/White) Decklists
HenWen wrote:
4 x reave soul
4 x perilous myr

3 x fleshbag marauder
1 x liliana, heretical healer
4 x read the bones
2 x solemn offering

1 x archangel of tithes
2 x languish
3 x bitter revelation
1 x erebos's titan

2 x tragic arrogance
2 x hixus, prison warden
3 x cruel revival
1 x necromantic summons

2 x kothophed, soul hoarder

2 x isolated chapel
4 x dimir guildgate
3 x terramorphic expanse
8 x plains
8 x swamp


This is my idea for high curve control deck. I think this meta will prove to be much slower than people think, and I like the top end of both W and B. The curve is high but with tragic arrogance, hixus, and languish we have 6 pseudo board wipes. The singleton necromantic summons is there to fetch liliana and get erebos' titan back for free. The one thing this deck is really missing is lifegain - the black draw spells will hurt, and I am not sure if I need to put more early blockers in to deal with aggro. The lack of lifegain in a WB deck is quite puzzling to be honest.

Edit - the only lifegain cards I would consider are shadows of the past and guardian of meletis. Unfortunately neither is very good and I can't find the cut. This deck is pure theory at this point, the combination of few early cards + painful card draw may be too much - needs to be tested.


The manabase doesn't really support the Archangel and Erebos's on turn 4, and they're not all that exciting as a 6-7 drops. Besides, casting read the bones to scry for colours instead of answers isn't really where you want to be. I'd cut the Angel and rework the manabase with more black for more consistency on your Titan, Liliana, and Languish early on. Your important early plays are black.

There's definitely too much life-loss here. I'd cut some, if not all of the Bitter Revs. You rack up value with your wraths, your bombs, your Cruel Revivals. The deck doesn't need too many cards that just draw, especially at sorcery speed.

I actually came here to post a similar list, and here it is. (I stole your inclusion of Solemn Offering and your formatting).

4 x reave soul
4 x perilous myr

3 x fleshbag marauder
1 x liliana, heretical healer
4 x read the bones
2 x solemn offering

2 x languish
1 x Bitter Revelation
1 x gravedigger
1 x erebos's titan

1 x Necromantic Summons
2 x Gilt-Leaf Winnower
2 x tragic arrogance
2 x hixus, prison warden
3 x cruel revival

2 x kothophed, soul hoarder

2 x isolated chapel
4 x orzhov guildgate
3 x terramorphic expanse
6 x plains
10 x swamp


I had included Gravedigger over Necromantic Summons for similar reasons, but also to have a fourth zombie to play before a turn 5 Revival. I Included some Suppression Bonds for the synergy with Tragic Arrogance. It also directly answers planeswalkers and some tricky enchantments like Evolutionary Leap. Gilt Leaf Winnower is in there because our match-up against Elves is so good already that she's basically a Shadowborn Demon, and a far better 2 for 1 than something like Bitter Rev.

That said, I think my curve is also too high. How do we lower it? Corpse Hauler? Bone Splinters and something else to sac? Maybe just a Child of Night to get some lifegain?

I'm kind of tempted to include Kytheon. One drops really help to smooth out the curve, and holding up a Kytheon with mana on turn three makes it really difficult for an opponent to attack with 2 creatures of their own. If they choose to add more to the board without attacking and make us waste our mana, that plays right into our game plan of wrathing them out. Alternatively you could just trade him off with a 2 drop or 3 drop and play out your own curve. If you draw him late there's a decent chance you actually get to flip him, attacking with say a Giant and a Zombie or a Myr.
Author:  HenWen [ Fri Jul 10, 2015 1:14 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Magic Origins - Orzhov (Black/White) Decklists
Suppression bonds is a legit tech.

I deliberately kept my creature count low in order to max on value from languish and arrogance. The myr, fleshbag and liliana are the only creatures that die to languish, and the creature count is low enough I shouldn't normally have to sac much to arrogance.

As far as the mana issue of the 3/5 angel - that needs testing imo. I think with 17 white and black mana sources they should both be castable the majority of the time.

You may be right about life loss, this requires testing. Part of the reason I included so much draw was anti-control tech. You are right that the wipes should be decisive against aggro, the high curve and card draw are intended to give this deck game vs control. 7 card draw may be too much especially with such a high curve.

I think suppression bonds is a legit tech. The 4/3 shadowborn elf is reasonable but I do want to keep my creature count low. If I cut some bitter revs / read the bones I would add in suppression bonds first, the combo with arrogance is beautiful.

Gravedigger combos with cruel revival, necromantic summons combos with erebos' titan and can be used to steal a larger creature. Not sure which one is better TBH.

As far as the curve, thats hard to tell in a vacuum. I wanted to start with the most powerful cards I could find, if this is too slow I can decide what cuts to make.

Solemn offering - the reason for 2 copies is due to the combo with perilous myr. I want to be able to crack my myr on demand, it is a loss of card advantage but it gives you something to do with extra copies of offering.
Author:  Spencer [ Fri Jul 10, 2015 1:49 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Magic Origins - Orzhov (Black/White) Decklists
Fair points on all counts, but I think you might be overestimating how much having creatures hurts your deck. There are 6 pseudo-Wraths in the deck, but they're fairly easy to play alongside creatures. Tragic Arrogance is vastly improved if you have a creature already on the board to take advantage of the wipe, and Hixus is completely one sided. That means the Languishes are the only 2 cards in your deck that get worse when you have something like a 4/3 on the board. It's not extremely difficult to time cards like Winnowers to hit the board after a Languish, or to trade them off and let the opponent commit something else to the board before Wrathing it.

As to the rest, we'll know more after we test.



Edit: I just realized that there's no way the deck can run Suppression Bonds. One of our core engines is Fleshbag Marauder... and I don't see pacifism and sacrifice running well together. I'll take out the Bonds, but I'm not sure what their best replacement is. I'm still not quite sold on the Bitter Revelations because doing nothing and doing damage to yourself for multiple turns in a row seems like a bad idea, but my curve is lacking plays on 4. Playing another 3 drop isn't the worst, but it's really not ideal. The potential upside to Summons has me interested, but I don't think it's reliable enough to warrant replacing any other 5 on my list. Its possible I just want to run a toolbox of powerful five drops that are relevant in different situations, but it looks like a silly curve.
Author:  True_Believer [ Mon Jul 13, 2015 4:59 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Magic Origins - Orzhov (Black/White) Decklists
Dangerous Charms ()

3 x Gurmag Swiftwing
4 x Grasp of the Hieromancer
4 x Auramancer
4 x Heliod's Pilgrim
3 x Blood-Cursed Knight
3 x Blessed Spirits
1 x Liliana, Heretical Healer
3 x Blightcaster
4 x Suppression Bonds
2 x Knightly Valor
2 x Sigil of the Empty Throne
2 x Tragic Arrogance
2 x Boonweaver Giant


9x Plains
9x Swamp
2x Isolated Chapel
4x Dimir Guildgate

My enchantment deck. Only four rares and 1 mythic, but a lot of synergy and fetch effects from your deck or your graveyard.

That makes Liliana a welcomed addition as you can discard your enchantments and get them back later while crippling your opponent hand.

If she goes ultimate even better, because now due to your creature effects you can have any enchantment in your deck or graveyard.

But this deck will struggle against fast aggro decks as it doesn't have early removal or many creatures before turn 3.

Edit: I decided some of my choices were not perfect and deck needed more early removal for being too slow.

Dangerous Charms ()

4 x Reave Soul
4 x Grasp of the Hieromancer
4 x Auramancer
4 x Heliod's Pilgrim
3 x Blood-Cursed Knight
3 x Blessed Spirits
1 x Liliana, Heretical Healer
4 x Suppression Bonds
2 x Gilt-Leaf Winnower
2 x Knightly Valor
2 x Sigil of the Empty Throne
2 x Tragic Arrogance
2 x Boonweaver Giant


9x Plains
9x Swamp
2x Isolated Chapel
4x Dimir Guildgate

Added Reave Soul as early removal and Gilt-Leaf Winnower, not exactly as removal, but more for his menace ability. With a Grasp of the Hieromancer on him, he will be very difficult to be blocked. The removal also helps.
Author:  brodo [ Tue Jul 21, 2015 8:38 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Magic Origins - Orzhov (Black/White) Decklists
Getting a feel for auras. I want to tinker with some other colors pairings, but maybe I should start with the draw that is Blood-Cursed Knight first.

Creatures:
2 Relic Seeker
4 Topan Freeblade
3 Blessed Spirits
3 Blood-Cursed Knight
1 Heliod's Pilgrim
1 Kytheon's Irregulars
2 Hixus, Prison Warden

Noncreatures:
4 Grasp of the Hieromancer
4 Nimbus Wings
4 Suppression Bonds

2 Reave Soul
3 Read the Bones

If I counted right, that's currently 33 nonlands and I'd run either 23 or 24 lands here. Not sure about the remaining handful of cards. A few more early creature plays jumps out as the biggest thing.

Since black seems like an appealing color for the pool, my approach was to enchant dudes and sneak past Reave Soul or Languish if they aren't timed right. Nimbus Wings pushes almost everything past 4 toughness under the right conditions, and any offensive aura pushes me towards the 4 power. Red is hindered in a similar manner if I can get around instant play speed, but blue or white removal options are pretty annoying to run into. I suppose Fleshbag Marauder makes me pretty sad face too.

I feel a little threat light at the low end though, where the white renown bears were my starting point and from there didn't love anything else. There are some decent cards at that cost though, so squeezing in a couple shouldn't be hard. Just curious to hear which cards people like at this part of the curve.

I think Hixus could be swapped with Gilt-Leaf Winnower if desired.

How many enchantments should be in a deck before Sigil of the Empty Throne becomes viable? Also, any changes to the 4/4/4 aura split?
Author:  DJ0045 [ Tue Jul 21, 2015 8:45 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Magic Origins - Orzhov (Black/White) Decklists
Probably use the black enchant that draws when the enchanted creature dies. It's decent, and cheap. I wouldn't bother with the Pilgrim (even just the one copy), IMO.
Author:  brodo [ Tue Jul 21, 2015 9:21 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Magic Origins - Orzhov (Black/White) Decklists
Infernal Scarring? I don't know. I like the other enchantments because they mess with combat or grant evasion. Death cantrip is nice and all, but how many copies would you consider. Plus is this in addition or over the 4-4 Grasp and Wings split? EDIT: Alright, I opened up to the idea. Might test two copies, but I'm still a tiny bit apprehensive.

Would you jam the final Read the Bones over Heliod's Pilgrim? I think I prefer the card overall, since the scry can help filter past useless auras if I need creatures. Sometimes you need that enchantment, but we all probably feel similar over the 1/2 that's left behind. Interesting enough though, Infernal Scarring is the kind of card I'd probably want to throw onto Heliod's Pilgrim.

EDIT: Kind of looking to reduce the curve a bit now and filling out with some extra creatures at either 1 or 2.
Author:  Rattleclaw_mystic [ Tue Jul 21, 2015 9:52 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Magic Origins - Orzhov (Black/White) Decklists
brodo wrote:
Infernal Scarring? I don't know. I like the other enchantments because they mess with combat or grant evasion. Death cantrip is nice and all, but how many copies would you consider. Plus is this in addition or over the 4-4 Grasp and Wings split? EDIT: Alright, I opened up to the idea. Might test two copies, but I'm still a tiny bit apprehensive.

Would you jam the final Read the Bones over Heliod's Pilgrim? I think I prefer the card overall, since the scry can help filter past useless auras if I need creatures. Sometimes you need that enchantment, but we all probably feel similar over the 1/2 that's left behind. Interesting enough though, Infernal Scarring is the kind of card I'd probably want to throw onto Heliod's Pilgrim.

EDIT: Kind of looking to reduce the curve a bit now and filling out with some extra creatures at either 1 or 2.


Why not Child of Night? Gurmag Swiftwing looks like it might be good if you can give it some power. There’s also Cleric of the Forward Order. The first one nets you two life, the second nets you four. That’s not a bad deal for 2 mana and it doesn't hinter your manabase. By the way, if it wasn't clear, I think life gain is going to be a thing in this set since it's so rare and everyone is trying to kill you asap.

Also, why are you running 2x Relic Seeker without any equipment to search for? I just noticed that.

edit: Not sure how many auras you need to justify Sigil of the Empty Throne but a problem I see with most auras is that they cost 2CMC unless it's a lock aura like Suppression Bonds or Claustrophobia. That really hurts the curve. Maybe it'd be better to keep the mana curve lower, and build up the 2-slot, so you can play multiple 2-drops on four and after. That way your opponent is still paying, usually, 5CMC for Flesh to Dust to kill it. You still get two-for-oned but I don't see that many people posting lists with expensive removal spells anyway. The majority of decks seem to be aggressive and reliant on board wipes (for elves, thopters, and aggro). Multiple auras can easily get you out of range of Languish so unless it's a steal sac deck you should be okay.
Author:  DJ0045 [ Tue Jul 21, 2015 10:08 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Magic Origins - Orzhov (Black/White) Decklists
Yeah I don't know, but I like the life gain thought process too. Not as a major component, but just a couple here a couple there kind of thing could be smart. Regarding infernal scarring, I like it because it avoids the possible 2 for 1 from most, not all, removal in the Meta. What about the 3/2 Fear creature as a possible attacker?

On the flip side, infernal scarring would be possibly terrible mojo against sac steal, lol.
Author:  brodo [ Tue Jul 21, 2015 10:24 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Magic Origins - Orzhov (Black/White) Decklists
I had my eye between Child of Night and Cleric of the Forward Order, so it's nice to see someone else think that as well.

I'm not really impressed with our current equipment selection, so Relic Seeker was pretty much considered since it can turn into a 3/3, which looked respectable. Maybe adding something like Gurmag Swiftblade I could see tossing in a copy of the throwing knife.

With how light black currently is, I'd be inclined to up Kytheon's Irregulars before the 3/2 fear monster.
Author:  Rattleclaw_mystic [ Tue Jul 21, 2015 10:28 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Magic Origins - Orzhov (Black/White) Decklists
DJ0045 wrote:
Yeah I don't know, but I like the life gain thought process too. Not as a major component, but just a couple here a couple there kind of thing could be smart. Regarding infernal scarring, I like it because it avoids the possible 2 for 1 from most, not all, removal in the Meta. What about the 3/2 Fear creature as a possible attacker?

On the flip side, infernal scarring would be possibly terrible mojo against sac steal, lol.


Just to elaborate on this a bit further. I think a lot of people are under estimating the power of Auramancer. She can entirely negate the whole ‘two-for-one’ feel bad by getting you back your aura spell. She turns your auras into a one for one again (your creature for their removal spell). Plus a 2/2 body isn’t the worse thing in this format. She’ll usually trade with something and at worst chump block after she’s recouped your card advantage. With that said I don’t think running a whole playset is a good idea but 2 or 3 copies can help with the blowout of losing one enchanted creature as long as you’re not putting all your auras on one creature.

By the way, Infernal Scarring couples well with Skyhunter Skirmisher. 6 damage evasion is a 4 turn clock on its own and 4 copies of each helps you more consistently build a big threat.
Author:  DJ0045 [ Tue Jul 21, 2015 10:55 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Magic Origins - Orzhov (Black/White) Decklists
Yeah that's in my current WB auras. But not much thought or time has gone into it yet.
Author:  brodo [ Tue Jul 21, 2015 10:56 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Magic Origins - Orzhov (Black/White) Decklists
I like Skyhunter Skirmisher and could see it if I need the clock boost. On a similar note, I like the white first strikers with a more front loaded pump too. I'm not sure I want to deal with the headache of a WW cost in a two color deck, but it still could be worth it.
Author:  DJ0045 [ Tue Jul 21, 2015 11:22 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Magic Origins - Orzhov (Black/White) Decklists
I wonder if WBR auras is a thing. Mostly white, but splash the other two. You get access to another double strike, and some nice auras to boot. I've been considering it.
Author:  Rattleclaw_mystic [ Wed Jul 22, 2015 2:08 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Magic Origins - Orzhov (Black/White) Decklists
@Brodo,
You could easily get if you only splash black for auras. To be honest black creatures aren’t that great (except for Blightcaster and Blood-Cursed Knight) and you can get 90% probability for by turn 3 with only 12 sources. 90% on turn 2 only requires 20 sources. But if you use dual lands you can get that by going 2x Isolated Chapel, 4x Orzhov Guildgate, 6x Swamp, 14x Plains = 26 lands total. The curve won’t be best (if you want to be aggressive) but I don’t think you’re going pure aggro anyway so 26 lands is fine for a midrange deck. You might as well include Sigil of the Empty Throne at that point for a late game finisher.

@DJ,
I’m not sure if black is worth running at that point. I feel like Boros auras would be better in that shell because all you get with Black is Blightcaster which isn’t currently in the build anyway. I feel like White/Red creatures are so much better with auras that black isn’t worth inclusion at that point because if you look at the black auras there is only: Infernal Scarring (Decent but not worth splashing for imo), Necromantic Thirst (doesn’t seem to be doing much), Consecrated by Blood (is sacrificing two dudes ever going to come up?). I guess you could splash black for Blood-Cursed Knight, but, is it worth messing with the manabase for a 3/2 lifelink? That I don’t know.
Author:  Lord Rumfish [ Thu Jul 23, 2015 7:38 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Magic Origins - Orzhov (Black/White) Decklists
DJ0045 wrote:
I wonder if WBR auras is a thing. Mostly white, but splash the other two. You get access to another double strike, and some nice auras to boot. I've been considering it.


I don't know about the perfect color pairing (although I like power pump so Infernal Scarring would be great here), but I will say that the first time Ravnica was around, I used Flaring Flame-Kin in my casual Rakdos deck and that guy was a beating. He could win the game from out of nowhere paired up with such simple fare as Riot Spikes or Taste for Mayhem, and those didn't draw you a card when they died. Just saying, one Infernal Scarring turns him into a trampling 6/4 firebreather. I could see white being useful as well.
Author:  DJ0045 [ Thu Jul 23, 2015 8:30 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Magic Origins - Orzhov (Black/White) Decklists
Lord Rumfish wrote:
DJ0045 wrote:
I wonder if WBR auras is a thing. Mostly white, but splash the other two. You get access to another double strike, and some nice auras to boot. I've been considering it.


I don't know about the perfect color pairing (although I like power pump so Infernal Scarring would be great here), but I will say that the first time Ravnica was around, I used Flaring Flame-Kin in my casual Rakdos deck and that guy was a beating. He could win the game from out of nowhere paired up with such simple fare as Riot Spikes or Taste for Mayhem, and those didn't draw you a card when they died. Just saying, one Infernal Scarring turns him into a trampling 6/4 firebreather. I could see white being useful as well.


Yeah, he looks pretty good to me. I was talking about him over in RDW, not from experience, but just from facing him in Duels Origins. I like that card for sure. It requires two cards, but it's one of the fastest clocks available to aggro or midrange right now.
Page 1 of 15 All times are UTC - 6 hours [ DST ]
Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Group
http://www.phpbb.com/