I'm worried about it slowing the deck down even further though. 11 taplands might be too much. Not ditching the wilds either since they are strong with telling time later on.
Also with the selfmill you risk putting them in the yard....
OK so simplified calculation, not taking into account screeching skaab nonbo; not taking into account mulligans; playing gaeas revenge by turn 7; Not taking into account HAVING gaea in hand by then, allowing for 3 extra drawn/ filtered cards by then (which is a bit conservative); on the draw.....
With D = 60 T = 4 (Checklands) H = 17 (Cards seen)
=> 0,75 I need both checklands so it's more or less 0,56.
Taking into account having to have DRAWN gaea by then I 'm getting around 27% of the cases that I will be able to hardcast Gaea's revenge by turn 7.
So for simplicity's sake let's say the added checklands may be relevant +/- 1 in 4 games. The opportunity cost of doing this is harder to calculate. This deck needs its early plays to dig and set up. If I take out islands and swamps for 4 checklands I'm gonna run into some situations where I can't cast telling time/epiphany on curve etc.
Don't know. Should be worth it, if I didn't **** up the math.
Anyone with a better mind willing to comment on the probabilities here ? Someone wanna show me what the probabilities are of a T5 10/7 ? I know there are at least some Maths majors around here. Managed one in 8 games so far but I got incredibly lucky ofc
Here's the deck I've been running. I would recommend it after about rank 10 when the meta shifts away from RDW/White Weenie towards more control and midrange. Last night I had an opponent stay after I got the Liliana Ult + Fleshbag Marauder soft lock which I didn't even realize existed till I got it.
@zigna It is possible, technically you can have up to 100 cards, but playing more than 60 is not really recommended. Some will argue 61 or 62 doesn't make that much of a difference, but most will agree that 60 is optimal, even over 61 or 62. So most of us here stick with 60.
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iOS Username: minddrifter Steam Profile Name: minddrifter BattleTag: minddrifter#1397 NGA: Formerly known as "Nebula"
@zigna It is possible, technically you can have up to 100 cards, but playing more than 60 is not really recommended. Some will argue 61 or 62 doesn't make that much of a difference, but most will agree that 60 is optimal, even over 61 or 62. So most of us here stick with 60.
I am of the opinion that any deck that includes both card draw and mana fixing is safe with having 61 cards. I've never personally made a 62 card list though and I would advise against it.
And if the deck does not include both card draw and mana fixing, 60 is the absolute maximum, no exceptions.
Last edited by WangtorioJackson on Thu Aug 27, 2015 4:02 pm, edited 1 time in total.
@zigna It is possible, technically you can have up to 100 cards, but playing more than 60 is not really recommended. Some will argue 61 or 62 doesn't make that much of a difference, but most will agree that 60 is optimal, even over 61 or 62. So most of us here stick with 60.
great! I thougth 60 was fixed. If not, it opens up a little bit more of possibilities...
sorry if the question sounded stupid but I started playing magic again after years and years...
@zigna It is possible, technically you can have up to 100 cards, but playing more than 60 is not really recommended. Some will argue 61 or 62 doesn't make that much of a difference, but most will agree that 60 is optimal, even over 61 or 62. So most of us here stick with 60.
great! I thougth 60 was fixed. If not, it opens up a little bit more of possibilities...
sorry if the question sounded stupid but I started playing magic again after years and years...
Actually now that I think about it, I'm reasonably sure if you build decks with the "Deck Wizard" (what I like to call the Trash Compactor) then the card amount is indeed set to 60. You have to use the Deck Builder in order to have the freedom to make actual choices with your deck, so I just wanted to add this in case you were using the deck wizard, in order to alleviate any potential confusion. But really, you never ever ever want to use the deck wizard to build a deck for anything other than to fulfill a daily quest that requires it, so if you are currently using it, you should give the deck builder a try.
Actually now that I think about it, I'm reasonably sure if you build decks with the "Deck Wizard" (what I like to call the Trash Compactor) then the card amount is indeed set to 60. You have to use the Deck Builder in order to have the freedom to make actual choices with your deck, so I just wanted to add this in case you were using the deck wizard, in order to alleviate any potential confusion. But really, you never ever ever want to use the deck wizard to build a deck for anything other than to fulfill a daily quest that requires it, so if you are currently using it, you should give the deck builder a try.
deck wizard = organised s**t.
I'm using it only with the daily mission to get more coins.
Actually now that I think about it, I'm reasonably sure if you build decks with the "Deck Wizard" (what I like to call the Trash Compactor) then the card amount is indeed set to 60. You have to use the Deck Builder in order to have the freedom to make actual choices with your deck, so I just wanted to add this in case you were using the deck wizard, in order to alleviate any potential confusion. But really, you never ever ever want to use the deck wizard to build a deck for anything other than to fulfill a daily quest that requires it, so if you are currently using it, you should give the deck builder a try.
deck wizard = organised s**t.
I'm using it only with the daily mission to get more coins.
Joined: Mar 14, 2015 Posts: 693
Identity: Dweller In The Dark
Yeah, wizard is bad.
On other news, ideally 24 lands is a "standard" mana base. This has been calculated and number punched for as long as MtG has been out. That said, there are always exceptions to that rule. Playing mono color with only a 4 drop as the highest mana requirement would indeed allow you to run more creatures/spells and less mana. Same can be said about running 25+ lands. When the Landfall mechanic hits with B4Z, it is entirely possible you wanna mana ramp and trigger the abilities. So in that case, more land is good. The problem of hitting above 60 cards however is your upsetting the balance in the Force. Yes, you have more cards, but it's far more likely your opponent will get to his bombs first before you have a chance to answer them.
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On other news, ideally 24 lands is a "standard" mana base. This has been calculated and number punched for as long as MtG has been out. That said, there are always exceptions to that rule. Playing mono color with only a 4 drop as the highest mana requirement would indeed allow you to run more creatures/spells and less mana. Same can be said about running 25+ lands. When the Landfall mechanic hits with B4Z, it is entirely possible you wanna mana ramp and trigger the abilities. So in that case, more land is good. The problem of hitting above 60 cards however is your upsetting the balance in the Force. Yes, you have more cards, but it's far more likely your opponent will get to his bombs first before you have a chance to answer them.
You're right, 24 is a good baseline but it really does depend on the deck. All my control lists have 24, my aggro decks had 21 when I was using them to grind against the AI but I upped them to 22 since then. I still don't really use them against human opponents though lol.
I saw a monowhite decklist someone posted on reddit that had 19 land lol, and he excused it by pointing out the 2 Knights of the White Orchid. I mean, we've already been through the same thing here on nga with green and Gatecreeper Vine, and there's 4 of those. And they work whether you're on the play or the draw. It was just ludicrous.
On other news, ideally 24 lands is a "standard" mana base. This has been calculated and number punched for as long as MtG has been out. That said, there are always exceptions to that rule. Playing mono color with only a 4 drop as the highest mana requirement would indeed allow you to run more creatures/spells and less mana. Same can be said about running 25+ lands. When the Landfall mechanic hits with B4Z, it is entirely possible you wanna mana ramp and trigger the abilities. So in that case, more land is good. The problem of hitting above 60 cards however is your upsetting the balance in the Force. Yes, you have more cards, but it's far more likely your opponent will get to his bombs first before you have a chance to answer them.
You're right, 24 is a good baseline but it really does depend on the deck. All my control lists have 24, my aggro decks had 21 when I was using them to grind against the AI but I upped them to 22 since then. I still don't really use them against human opponents though lol.
I saw a monowhite decklist someone posted on reddit that had 19 land lol, and he excused it by pointing out the 2 Knights of the White Orchid. I mean, we've already been through the same thing here on nga with green and Gatecreeper Vine, and there's 4 of those. And they work whether you're on the play or the draw. It was just ludicrous.
As I stated, there are exceptions. I run 23 land with my Golgari Control. 4 of which are Wilds, as well as 1 Foundry. Really, that is 19 lands with one being colorless. But I have Vines for mana fixing too. There are always exceptions to the 24 rule.
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I know, that's what I meant. I just had some ambiguous phrasing there I guess. I didn't mean You're right, "24 is a good baseline" but it really does depend on the deck, I meant You're right, "24 is a good baseline but it really does depend on the deck" if that makes more sense.
I'm worried about it slowing the deck down even further though. 11 taplands might be too much. Not ditching the wilds either since they are strong with telling time later on.
Also with the selfmill you risk putting them in the yard....
OK so simplified calculation, not taking into account screeching skaab nonbo; not taking into account mulligans; playing gaeas revenge by turn 7; Not taking into account HAVING gaea in hand by then, allowing for 3 extra drawn/ filtered cards by then (which is a bit conservative); on the draw.....
With D = 60 T = 4 (Checklands) H = 17 (Cards seen)
=> 0,75 I need both checklands so it's more or less 0,56.
Taking into account having to have DRAWN gaea by then I 'm getting around 27% of the cases that I will be able to hardcast Gaea's revenge by turn 7.
So for simplicity's sake let's say the added checklands may be relevant +/- 1 in 4 games. The opportunity cost of doing this is harder to calculate. This deck needs its early plays to dig and set up. If I take out islands and swamps for 4 checklands I'm gonna run into some situations where I can't cast telling time/epiphany on curve etc.
Don't know. Should be worth it, if I didn't **** up the math.
Anyone with a better mind willing to comment on the probabilities here ? Someone wanna show me what the probabilities are of a T5 10/7 ? I know there are at least some Maths majors around here. Managed one in 8 games so far but I got incredibly lucky ofc
Check lands are rarely tapped on entry and if you're worried about them in swap 2 guildgates for 2 checks.
I'm just trying an exercise in solving meta questions. I ended up with this control list. I kind of want a copy of possessed skaab somewhere. Ill have to test it out.
^Your answer to the meta doesn't solve Gaea's Revenge, or any of the enchantments being run like Evoleap, Flameshadow Conjuring, Sphinx's Tutelage, et al.
This is dimir. I'm trying to build dimir control. Do you have any suggestions outside of not playing dimir in the first place? I understand the limitations of these colors. That's why I'm doing it. Variety and such. I did change out the lurkers for marauders to have more of a chance against gaea. I filled the third slot with another tower geist for now.
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