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PostPosted: Fri Jun 03, 2016 12:53 am 
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HenWen wrote:
Modulo: I am curious about the absence of planar outburst. I would cut the third geistblast and both brutal expulsion and add land #25 plus planar outburst.
How do you deal with planeswalkers? A suppression bond or two might help.


Thanks for your input.
I don't like Planar much here because I'd have to run more White contorting the manabase and we actually have access to a big sweeper (Geistblasted Radiant Flames kills most living things). That being said, I think it's a card you can definitely consider adding. My cut for it would likely be Talent of the Telepath, because you'd likely bring Planar in if you expect more aggressive decks that tend to run less useful spells for you (Mono-W Humans being the prime example). I currently like Talent a bit more.
I would not want to cut Brutal Expulsion from this list; that card is as close as you can get to a catch-all answer for the deck (a bit like Anguished Unmaking in most Orzhov lists). It's your best card against Planeswalkers (Remanding them on the stack or finish off a weakened one), it's bounce, it's small removal (that you'll sometimes combine with another small removal spell like Fiery Impulse) - this card does it all.
I'm also not in love with cutting a Geistblast, which is an important part of your win condition. If you really think you need a 25th land (I don't think you do, seeing the high amount of card draw and selection this deck probides at 2-3 mana), I'd consider cutting Ulamog - Nahiri is good even without him and you'll discard him 9 out of 10 times you draw him. You'll do the same with Geistblast, but Geistblast is useful to have in the yard.
You don't have many tools vs. opposing planeswalkers; I mentioned Expulsion, Awoken Horror can straight-up kill a Walker the turn it flips, a hard-cast Geistblast can finish off a weakened Walker, Chandra's +1 and Fevered Visions can also pressure them. That's pretty much it, but it's all you need: You'll mainly want to delay them as very few are actively problematic for you (except for their ultimate) and you usually should be able to race them.
Suppression Bonds is an interesting idea, though, as it needs the same removal as your wincons. Not sure what to cut for them, though; as Talent of the Telepath is actively good vs. Superfriends (can find you high-impact spells, ideally Anguished Unmaking, and fastens the clock)
Nahiri is the most problematic Walker for you, as she kills your wincon. If she comes down to remove an artifact, she is in range of Geistblast, Visions and Expulsion, though.
Nissa and Gideon can flood he board, against which you'll have Radiant Flames or some small spells to chip one or two away if they get problematic.
Arlinn can be annoying as she can fasten the opponent's clock, as can Chandra whose Elementals will mess with you. Deal with them as you see fit - race or try to kill them, depending on the situation.
The best walkers for you to encounter are Jace and Obi, as their - abilities don't help much against you and their + abilities actually help your main win condition - you have to keep Obi from getting to his ultimate though. Sorin is similar, but he can kill your Walkers and his +1 deals some damage.

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PostPosted: Fri Jun 03, 2016 10:01 am 
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Modulo: I agree with not cutting Geistblast. Geistblast + Talent wins games and can be a Hail Mary that can turn the tide. (My favorite is hitting a Talent with my Talent.) Although you really don't run much burn until you add the Tempers, Geistblast + Burn also wins games. (I run Exquisite Firecraft, and those two cards = 10 points of damage)

I also agree on Brutal being great in the deck. As you say, it is a great utility card.

Speaking of Tempers, if/when you add those, you will have more options vs Walkers, BUT it will strain your mana base more. I run 26 lands, and at times it feels strained because of the RR on my removal of Temper and Firecraft. The WW of Planar has not really been an issue most of the time since I normally have good mana options by T5.

As far as outburst, I do think it has a place in the deck, and I would agree that 1 for Ulamog may be the right move. If you are having issues w/ Walkers, maybe Tragic Arrogance instead, as it can avoid your Thing if needed, but if you have 2+ enchantments out, not so good.

How has Ulamog worked for you so far? I considered it, but it is so rare that I can keep Nahiri alive long enough that it would trigger that it would seem a dead card more often then not. And on that vein, how have you dealt with Ulamog and other Indestructible? I know you run 2 Decs in stones, as do I, but I would like to run 2 more options to have a better chance of having an answer. Bonds does work for both Ulamog and Walkers, but I have found that it can break at the worst times. Still, a decent option. I have gone through lots of options, but haven't found any that I love yet.

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PostPosted: Fri Jun 03, 2016 10:51 am 
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Thanks for your input Wintervoid.

Ulamog has been working okay for me so far. It's more of a tech card that does work in those two games you get it off Nahiri or hard-cast it vs. Esper Control, and gets discarded in most other match-ups. I feel like the deck can afford running this kind of card, but I could see cutting him for a Bonds or an Outburst.

Against Ulamog, you don't have too much. Dec in Stone, Nahiri and that's it pretty much. Try to race it or try to dig for your answers, both work reasonably well.

I feel like this deck's Mana would be solid enough for Temper or Firecraft (in doubt I could add some Highland Lakes), but I wouldn't want to cut any card for it.

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PostPosted: Thu Jun 09, 2016 3:42 am 
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 09, 2016 9:59 am 
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teh-gamer wrote:


Looks good. Very close to what I am running w/ much success.

The only change I would make is dropping Avacyn's Judgment. You just do not have enough discard (Or cheap Discard) to make it work well in most cases. I replaced with Celestial Flare and it performed much better, esp vs those things like Ulamog. For your deck, you have 3 purges that fill the same role as my flares. If you want Judgment for early threats, I would replace with Oath of Chandra. It serves three purposes. It does 1 more point of damage, it can do some extra damage when you play Plainswalkers, and it gives you a Sac target for Purges. (I may suggest Oath of Jace over Pour over the pages for the same reasons) The downside is if you play against Tragic Arrogance, it gives them a target to keep over Tutelage/Visions.

Speaking of Purges, how have they worked for you? I felt that since I run so few permanents, they could be counter productive. I have considered instead of Flare since I added Oaths, but Flare has done a great job so far, esp vs things like an attacking Gideon or Gaea's Revenge.

I just joined twitch and did a few games last night. If anyone is interested on how the creatureless deck run, take a look. https://secure.twitch.tv/wintervoidx/v/71399232

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PostPosted: Fri Jun 10, 2016 9:27 am 
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 10, 2016 9:45 am 
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I actually think there's a perfectly decent Boros Flameshadow deck to be had:

2 x Abbot of Keral Keep
2 x Thalia's Lieutenant
2 x Declaration in Stone
3 x Akoum Stonewaker
3 x Fiery Impulse
3 x Vessel of Volatility


3 x Thopter Engineer
3 x Pious Evangel
2 x Angelic Purge
2 x Exquisite Firecraft


1 x Nahiri, the Harbinger
1 x Gideon, Ally of Zendikar
2 x Flameshadow Conjuring
2 x Pia and Kiran Nalaar
1 x Akoum Firebird

1 x Archangel Avacyn
2 x Tragic Arrogance

1 x Chandra, Flamecaller

25 x lands


I don't know whether Reflector Mage merits a blue splash all by itself, but I think Boros is sufficient. On paper, this looks interesting enough to run.

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PostPosted: Fri Jun 10, 2016 12:26 pm 
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Can you explain what Akoum Stonewaker is supposed to do in that list? It seems like a bit of a weak option considering other or creatures available.

Otherwise a interesting deck that I might have to try out myself...

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PostPosted: Fri Jun 10, 2016 1:38 pm 
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2 reasons. First, it's a human so it benefits from Thalia's Lieutenant. Second, it generates tokens that can be sac'd to Angelic Purge or Fiery Conclusion as well as trigger Evangel.

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PostPosted: Mon Jun 13, 2016 6:49 pm 
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Inevitability

This deck is designed to keep the field clear of creatures, and win through Milling or Burn. It would seem like having two different win conditions would be counterproductive, but they mesh well with each other. Most Tutelage decks run plenty of removal anyway, all I have done is convert some of it to more burn to give you an alternate win condition. As far as going the Burn Route, only 5 cards do not help the goal at all, 3 Tutelage and 2 Talent of the Telepath. Talent CAN help in some matchups, but it is very rare that it helps with a Burn victory, besides sometimes reducing threats. Fevered Visions, Chandra and Geistblast do double duty for both objectives. Be prepared to switch tactics as things develop.

This is a creatureless deck for a few reasons. I originally has cut the creatures to Thing in the Ice and Baby Jace, but I found they tended to die to removal too often, especially Jace. By running so few creatures, they attracted any and all removal.

A secondary effect was by not having creatures, you have created dead draws for your opponent. Barring having Gideon out w/ Tokens, you have just made your opponents Languish, Radiant Flames and Declaration in Stone dead cards. Instant speed removal is still a live card IF you activate a manland.
The Third reason is related to the dead card. Dead cards in hand makes Fevered Visions more effective. Although rare, I have had opponents kill their own creatures just to get below 4 cards by EOT.

One advantage that this deck has over many others is that we often do not care about our opponent’s card advantage if we are going the mill route. Depending on your position, you may want to encourage your opponent to make clues and draw cards. Visions will punish them for keeping a large hand size, and Tutelage will make every card drawn ½ a mill.

Deckist –

Instant(11)
2x Celestial Flare
3x Geistblast
4x Fiery Temper
2x Brutal Expulsion

Sorcery(10)
2x Declaration in Stone
2x Exquisite Firecraft
2x Radiant Flames
2x Talent of the Telepath
2x Planar Outburst

Enchantment(9)
2x Oath of Chandra
3x Sphinx's Tutelage
2x Oath of Jace
2x Fevered Visions

Planeswalker(4)
1x Gideon, Ally of Zendikar
1x Nahiri, the Harbinger
1x Jace, Unraveler of Secrets
1x Chandra, Flamecaller

Land(26)
2x Sulfur Falls
4x Plains
2x Wandering Fumarole
3x Island
5x Mountain
2x Needle Spires
2x Canopy Vista
2x Glacial Fortress
2x Clifftop Retreat
2x Evolving Wilds

Here is a Breakdown on why the cards are included:

Removal

Celestial Flare - This card is mainly in for Indestructible and untargetable creatures. It is also useful for manlands that are you can not hit with instant burn. This plus the two Declaration in Stones are your main Ulamog defense, so make sure you have 4 sources of white before Ulamog is cast if at all possible. Many Ramp players will target your white mana. Also, Celestial will prevent Ulamogs mill effect from triggering. This is a bug that may be addressed at some point.

Declaration in Stone - Your main removal for large creatures. Only use this if you have to, as it is your best defense vs many large creatures. The Clue is often irrelevant due to Fevered Visions and/or Tutor. At times you will hope they crack the clue.
Brutal Expulsion - This is a soft answer to large creatures. It is a bit of a utility card. It can place cards in hand to trigger Fevered Visions, and it helps kill pesky Planeswalkers. Vs Aggro it shines. It may only kill one creature unless you target a token, but it can remove two threats and slow down the game.

Oath of Chandra – The first burn that you will be able to cast. Although not a true burn spell, it can get you a few extra points of damage through the match as you play Planeswalkers. Also be aware that the 2 damage from playing a Planeswalker can target other Planeswalkers. Be careful playing Oaths if you suspect your opponent is running Tragic Arrogance.

Geistblast - Over costed 2 damage instant spell, but when cast still good for most Humans, some man lands and finishing off Walkers. The main use of this card is in the graveyard though. My 4 most commonly used targets are Talent of the Telepath for milling purposes, Exquisite Firecraft to finish off an opponent, and Declaration in Stone or Celestial Flare to kill 2 large creatures. When discarding, this is my second most wanted target to discard.

Fiery Temper - The card you will most likely cast by discarding. You have three main ways to force the discard. The cheapest is Nahiri. This gets you a free card, but the downside is that you are casting at sorcery speed. There are times that you will want to hard cast Temper instead for the instant speed. Oath of Jace is another way to force discard. The last way is
Sphinx’s Tutor. It costs 7 mana, but you get a new card, 3 damage at instant speed and mill your opponent 2. This along with Exquisite Firecraft can finish a match quickly. Do not burn these lightly, you may wish later you could have these to finish an opponent.

Exquisite Firecraft - Good removal for hard to kill creatures, but the main use is to finish opponents, preferably with Geistblast. 8 points of uncounterable damage can swing a duel.

Radiant Flames – The first sweeper to come on board. Not much to say, but try and get some value out of it.

Planar Outburst - Keep these for larger creatures if possible. I also do not recommend use the Awaken Ability unless you are okay with losing a land. With no real creatures in the deck, by the time you cast this it is very likely that your opponent will have a hand full of creature removal. If you do have the spare land, Needle Spires is the best choice in most cases.

Mill Options & Misc

Sphinx's Tutelage– Although a main win condition, do not play this until you have the board in order and are sure you can safely play it. Only play vs agro when you have no other viable spells or the board is clean and they have no haste creatures.

Fevered Visions - This is the best card in the deck. It destroys Planeswalkers, helps Tutleage mill faster, and finds you answers. In most games I can keep this out, I will win by burn as Visions will often do 8-12 damage on it’s own. This card should be played when the board is clear, but there are more exceptions then Tutelage when you may want to play it. If you are mana light, it will probably take priority. If there is an annoying walker out, it can help quite a bit. I even play it against the agro decks. Although they draw threats, I generally draw more answers then they can produce threats. The only decks I would hesitate playing it against are vs another mill deck that has Tutelage out already, or perhaps a burn deck if I had other avenues to win.

Talent of the Telepath – The main target for Geistblast. This takes out almost 25% of your opponent’s library. It can be used to search for good instants from your opponent, but that is in a deck by deck case. The mill effect is the major ability. It will win you game that your opponent thought they had some time left, and some games where you can’t get or keep a Tutelage on the board. Be aware that it does cost UUU to cast w/ Geistblast.

Oath of Jace – Used to search your deck and mill your opponent.


Planeswalkers – A note on planeswalkers. They can be a win condition, but often I use them as a distraction to buy time. Jace will not win a game often, but he can buy you 2-3 turn to set up the win. This deck has no life gain, but the hate that Walkers draw can act as pseudo life gain. Chandra and Nahiri in some matchups are the only ones will take some damage to keep alive.

Gideon, Ally of Zendikar – This Walker doesn’t really fit the rest of the deck, but the power level is high enough to include it. It can win on its own, provide blockers (although often killed by removal) and provide a distraction while you set up the kill.

Nahiri, the Harbinger – This card gives you removal and card draw in one. Very good in the mirror match if you can keep her out. She will draw lot of fire from your opponent, and since she has a +2 instead of +1 abilities, you can keep her alive for a while. Her ultimate is of no use besides a bluff.

Jace, Unraveler of Secrets - This adds creature protection, Draw and can add damage with a bounce if Visions is out. Although it is rare, if you can ultimate him, do so. You may lose the card draw, but you have severely hampered your opponent.

Chandra, Flamecaller - The kill card. This card will work as a Radiant Flames, massive mill with Tutelage out or damage to the face. If you suspect your opponent has a Chandra, you may want to wait to play her. The second Chandra played will survive.

Play guidelines

Mulligan

This deck mulligans a fair amount. What you generally want in your opening hand is 3 Mana and 2+ removal options. I will sometimes play 2 Mana if I have UR and Fevered Visions or Oath of Jace and U mana if I am on the Draw, or have already used a Mulligan. A hand of 5 land can be playable, but your other two cards better be removal or draw and low cost. Your game generally is reactive, and if you do not have any way to react to an agro deck early, it is usually game over. Tutelage is okay in your starting hand, but not necessary. Actually, if you have more than of Tutelage or Talent of the Telepath, you may want to mulligan. You can win with that type of hand, but you better hope that your opponent is not playing a fast agro deck or you can top deck like a pro.

Common matchups:

Aggro – This can be Humans, Prowess, Vampires, RDW, UW fliers or any of the others. The key point on this is prevent any damage you can. If you have the option to play Tutor on T3 or kill a 2/2 with Geistblast, kill the creature. There are exceptions of course, like you may not want to kill it if your removal is Brutal Expulsion, since you want a 2 for 1 with that card, but the philosophy is the same. Kill what you can when you can with the most efficient card available. Vs most of these decks, if you survive the first 5 turns w/ 10+ life, you probably have won the game. Be careful with decks that run haste creatures and/or burn, and keep back Instants if possible. I.E. vs Prowess it may be better to use Declaration in stone instead of Fiery Blast to keep the blast for a Stormchaser later on.

You can play Fevered Visions vs all agro decks in most cases except Burn if you are low on life or vs Vampires. You have 17 targeted removal and 4 sweepers not including Planeswalker effects. You can generally draw more answers then they can play threats. Also, it will generally force them to overcommit so your sweepers are more effective. Tutelage is generally very effective vs aggro as they are just 1-2 colors and run less land then most decks. However, do not play Tutelage until you have control of the game, or it is your only play. Talent of the Telepath can be useful vs decks that run removal, but don’t count on it revealing removal. Often, if I have Talent and Removal in hand I can play the same turn, I will use Talent to see if I can hit their removal and save mine for later.

Ramp – This is probably the hardest matchup. The reason being is that they run big creatures that most of our removal can’t kill 1-1, and they also run lifegain. If they run some reanimation (most will run Greenwarden at the least), they can be your most difficult matchup.
This matchup, your most important cards are Declaration in Stone, Celestial Flare, Planar Outburst and Tutelage. You can win by Burn, especially if you get out an Early Visions and/or Gideon, but they have enough life gain to turn things around quickly. Milling is usually your best option, but unlike most matchups, you can never gain full control of the board. It is a true race. You want your milling to deny them key cards, but with many running Pulse and Greenwarden, a card in the graveyard is not out of the game. Plan for that. Keep at least 3-4 W mana on the board when they get close to casting Ulamog for your Declaration in stone or Celestial Flare. Also, you may want to keep Nahiri in hand unless you are on your way to milling them to death and think you can race them.

Basically, you want to keep your key cards in hand for their real threats, and do what you can to play Tutelage ASAP. It is okay to take some early damage vs this deck. Use your burn on their Planeswalkers and keep Tempers for Manlands.

A Geistblasted Talent can be good, but rarely great. You use it to put cards in their graveyard and deny them from drawing them. If you get an Explosive Vegetation or Nissa’s Renewal, that is icing on the cake. Do not expect any removal that will help you.

Walker Decks – These matchups are generally pretty good. With Burn and your own Walkers, you can generally keep theirs off the board. Fevered Visions is Excellent vs Walkers. The only exception is Gideon, as his Invulnerability as a creature prevents the Visions Damage.

I am seeing more and more walker hybrid builds including a Walker/Ramp strategy. Refer to Ramp for these builds.

Midrange – These decks are generally a pretty good matchup. They rely on Value creatures, Card Advantage and Walkers. We can kill their creatures, burn their walkers and if we have Visions or Tutelage out, we may WANT them to draw more cards. Talent really shines vs these decks. You mill for 7 cards and you will probably hit some sort of removal. If you can mill for 14, and it is almost a guarantee.

Blue Control – These can go either way. Vs another Tutelage deck, it is usually a race to see who can get out and keep out Tutelage. You will have a slight advantage in that you have the option of burning them out, where their advantage is generally Counterspells. Play burn on their endstep when you can. Either the damage gets through and gets you closer to the close with a Geistblasted Exquisite Firecraft, or you have one less counter to deal with on your turn. Manlands can be good, but expect that they have the removal available if they have the mana open.
Vs Esper, it is pretty much the same thing, but depending what counters/threats they run, and how patient they are, it can be easy or tough. Vs a smart, patient player, you need to accumulate threats (and you don’t have many) and hope you can get one through. Be careful of playing too timid though, as they can bluff counters as well.


Overall, I think the deck is a fun deck, but it can be streaky, and you have to know your opponent well to make the right plays. The main things to remember are to keep the board clear, and but time until you have control. At that point, the deck transitions from the role of control to the role of aggro, whether it be burning them down or aggressively milling. I won’t say this is a Tier 1 deck, but I would put a solid T2 deck with some great matchups. This is a very niche deck though, and if the meta changes so that there is more enchantment hate, this deck loses alot of it's bite. It can and does win with out the enchantments, but it is much more difficult.

Clips of play:

https://secure.twitch.tv/wintervoidx/v/71399232

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Last edited by Wintervoid on Wed Jun 15, 2016 9:25 am, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Mon Jun 13, 2016 9:44 pm 
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Wintervoid - Excellent writeup. I don't have much playtime this week but I may test it eventually... along with a Jeskai equipment deck posted on the Duels reddit that actually looks pretty decent.


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PostPosted: Tue Jun 14, 2016 12:31 am 
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That decklist looks really strong, I'll have to try it out in a bit.

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PostPosted: Tue Jun 14, 2016 9:58 am 
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Thank you. I will say that it is a deck that does not leave a lot of room for error. I have noticed that when I am focused and paying attention, I win about 70%, but if I am just casually playing, that drops considerably, and I kick myself for misplays. A perfect example is the first game on twitch. I should have used Declaration in stone on his Mina, but I overthought the situation and was keeping it for Ulamog later, thinking if I didn't draw a land for outburst, I could do it next turn. I should have followed my own rules and killed on sight.

Many of my mistakes come from keeping a poor hand. That is why I had a section dedicated to when I mulligan and why.

I like this deck better then several other decks I have played, but I will say that I can pretty much sleepwalk through a game with Humans and get a similar win %, but on this deck I do need to work for it.

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PostPosted: Tue Jun 14, 2016 3:22 pm 
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Why not run 2 x Fireball for another Geist wincon?

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PostPosted: Tue Jun 14, 2016 4:07 pm 
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Why not run 2 x Fireball for another Geist wincon?


I have tried it. I actually was running for a while instead of the Flares to test out. I liked the idea of my cards being multi purpose, hence all the burn.

The issues I was running into was two fold. First, I generally end games w/ 8-9 land. That is a straight Fireball of 6-7, and Geistblast really doesn't help until you get over 10 mana. I COULD lay out more land, but a lot of land goes to discard effects, and if I played them, I would be losing other cards.

The second issue is that it is too slow for aggro decks, and doesn't work as well as Flare against a lot of the larger creatures (at least at my mana levels).

I could look to cut/replace other cards, but I think the mana is the real barrier.

I would like some other good targets, but I need to be careful not to lose removal options. Most that I have considered are around 6 mana, but definitely open to suggestions.

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PostPosted: Tue Jun 14, 2016 4:54 pm 
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I'm at 100% with it so far but sample size is too small. It's really fun to play and the deck title is perfect for how I feel playing it.


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PostPosted: Tue Jun 14, 2016 7:24 pm 
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I feel like my Fevered Visions has killed a Gideon before after it attacked?

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PostPosted: Tue Jun 14, 2016 9:25 pm 
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Mowie666 wrote:
I feel like my Fevered Visions has killed a Gideon before after it attacked?


I will test it again when/if I get the chance. I was sure that I had an opponent change him into a creature when he played it, and after I hit with Visions, he still had 5 loyalty. But....I have been wrong once or twice before and I would like to verify one way or another. ;)

Thanks for the heads up

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PostPosted: Wed Jun 15, 2016 5:18 am 
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Identity: The Dance Commander
Why Canopy Vista and Sunpetal Grove?


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PostPosted: Wed Jun 15, 2016 7:21 am 
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Radiant flames baby


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