Really? What did he say to you? Is he a 49ers fan? Did he not like your dress? What was his response?

I think he's made for lists like this.. a solid beatstick that kills chumps, generates card advantage by saving you cards, and can be brought back with CR. He's pretty studly in my Rakdos control list..

but what do i cut? and do I add back more mountains to garentee his +1/+1? (I suppose having nightfire does make cruel revival better...)

What cards underperform for you?

Looking at the list.. if you wanna keep the Tutelages, I'd cut 1 Fiery Impulse, 1 Reave Soul and Jace (I'm not too impressed with him). Otherwise I'd look at dropping mill altogether, and going with a more burn/creature heavy build.

I just saw your edit about Jorubai. If you're taking early damage often he might be the right call. Jorubai would also let you cut down on spells that kill 2 toughness creatures since he can favorably block them.

honestly the only card underperforming or me right now is languish cause it only shows up after I've killed the entire board

ight, testing -2 reave soul -1 fiery impulse +3 ja boy

I am not so sure about taking Evolving Wilds out... specially if Nightfire is in. After all, we will need that Mountain...

evolving wilds is the same as a guildgate except it only gets one color (other then the fact it filters your deck) I didn't add nightfire I went with what I consider the much more solid murklurker, and there are easily enough swamps for him. now with that being said if you feel you absolutely need evolving wilds cut the 2 izzet guildgates for 2 evolving wilds

The difference between Nightfire and Ja Boy is that Nightfire can actually win the game. Ja Boy's 10 turn clock ain't scaring nobody.

I notice a lot of builds you create are short on wincons. Right now it's Mill, Titan and Disciple.. 2 creatures, 3 enchantments.. and Jace but I'm not counting him. Personally, I'd turn up the damage potential a little bit. Removing and durdling is fun and cute, but we're trying to win here aren't we?

Ja boy's lifegain changes game outcomes

Titan is a win con?

languish is auto-win vs elves and thopters. Don't worry about it underperforming in decks where you don't need it

doesn't reave soul kill way more creatures than fiery impulse? Where's that awesome thread that broke up all the stats of the removal options. It was SO GOOD that analysis.

Don't get me wrong, Ja Boy is great at staying alive/durdling.. but he's not gonna close out anything.. and he's not gonna gain you much life activating his ability on himself. He needs some big fat butts to give lifelink to. Also.. Ja Boy makes your Fleshbags worse bc your opponent won't attack into Ja Boy with weenies/Myrs/etc.

Absolutely Titan is a wincon in a deck like this.

Reave Soul is great vs those 2/4s, 3/5s and stuff like that, but Impulse is a pretty good substitute. It creams aura decks.

Are we really talking about Nightfire Giant? Really?

I'm willing to bet money you've never even played the card Spikeem. You just looked at it in the list, passed judgment and moved on. It's pretty good. Just ask Barney.. when we played against each other Nightfire ate him for breakfast multiple matches.. and Barney is a pretty good player IMO.

I've been making fun of Beast's love for Nightfire Giant for sometime now. That's just not a good card. You're saying that the card is good because it beats my severely handicapped decks!? Those decks are missing 20 key cards to be competitive. That's like saying Siege Mastodon is a good card cuz I used it in a deck that beat Bliss.

I really think there are better spots you can put in instead of that giant. It's no Kird Chieftain.

Reave Soul is a sorcery, I forgot. Impulse is better, you're right.

First of all, I don't think Nightfire is a bad card but it is thoroughly average.

But trying to jam it into a control deck citing "not enough wincons" is off the mark. Control wins inevitably, it needs to devote slots to answers. Nightfire is not an answer, it's an overcosted body with an expensive ability. At the top end of the right deck I'm sure it's borderline playable but here? Not so much.

See.. it's your mindset I disagree with. Control doesn't HAVE to win with inevitability and 2 wincons.. it can win with more wincons that can favorably attack/block. One of the reasons I like cards like Nightfire and Kird Chieftain is because I can use their abilities to SAVE cards in my hand. Sure I'll pay more for it.. but I'd rather pay 5 mana for Wildsize or Shock and keep more cards in my hand than spend cards that could be more useful later when I need that effect for a cheaper cost.

For instance: I have Nightfire and the opponent has Perilous Myr. I have removal for Myr in my hand but why spend it when I can just use the ability and get in for 5 anyway?

Even with your severely handicapped decks, you're still 3 times the player I am. I bow before your might.

If you take out the control cards for more creatures and wincons you no longer have a "control" deck. This isn't that complicated.

And if you have a Nightfire and five open mana to your opponent's Perilous Myr I would say you are winning that game even if you replace Nightfire with Siege Mastodon.

In one of my Simic Tempo episodes recently I made my opponent spend 20 mana to stick a Nightfire Giant. It just doesn't do anything and if you can afford to sink five mana into a Shock then you are ALREADY winning and it's got nothing to do with that Nightfire Giant you're fawning over.

That Myr example is basically the perfect situation for a Nightfire to shine, but in that same situation, Kird Chieftain does it better.

I think Nightfire would be insane in limited play (especially draft). A body with removal. It's almost a bomb.

In constructed, it is just ludicrously expensive and overcosted.


edit: hehe, you're a solid player, Beast, don't sell yourself short. You just don't 'see the music' yet. You will though. You're not a player that should be playing red though (not yet). I think you play black and green optimally. I'd say white as well but that's basically an insult.

It's fun playing with handicapped decks though. I got some buddies who are new so it levels the field a bit.

@Spikeem: In your story about 20 mana, Nightfire could've been Outland Colossus and it would've still been the same. Does that make Colossus bad? That point proves nothing. Any bomb deck would be in the same situation vs a bunch of bounce.

You're so rigid in your archetype definition. So.. for a deck to be a 'proper' control deck, it has to have 25 removal spells, 8 draw spells and 3 wincons? Any deviation from this and it's not a control deck? Is that what I'm supposed to take away from that? How is denying your opponent favorable attacks/blocks not a form of control?

How does insisting that control decks run control cards constitute rigidity?

And comparing Colossus to Nightfire Giant is like night and day. Colossus is huge, can't be gang-blocked, grows itself, and requires no additional mana investment to be worth its price tag. I still wouldn't jam it in a control deck, though. The same goes for Nightfire.

If you want to play a Grixis Midrange thingy then go for it.