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PostPosted: Tue May 16, 2017 10:26 am 
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In my inaugural post here on NGA I'd like to bow down to my new Haven_pt Overlord for building the "El Loco", even with 50% SOI the deck was so much fun I just had to open my wallet and buy the rest of Innistrad, it also set alight my long dead love for aggro decks, basically turning me into a degenerate. Too bad the deck travelled to Egypt but I guess I can still have fun with the older brew for a while. At any pace it really makes me wonder whether the new version is actually better, judging by the sheer number of 4+ cards, I think the beauty of Mono Red is to deal massive amounts of damage early and close with haste or a burn spell.


Always great to see El Loco receiving some love.
El Loco 4.0 has been having a great run, haven't lost with it yet after hitting R40. People rage quit for no apparent reason (I usually play on against the AI and most of the time they still put up a fight), I wonder if the randoms I face are familiar with it and just get demoralized or something?
That would be uber-cool... Lol.

Anyway, the new version plays more like a burn deck than aggro, Big a hasty creatures are like burn spells (highly expendable) and the objective is to get damage through fast and wear down their life total until they're in burn range, then its time to release the Fiery hellborn inferno on them and watch 'em burn. :mage:

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PostPosted: Tue May 16, 2017 1:25 pm 
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In my opinion, to make the most out of Key to the City you need cheap 1-drop and 2-drop to play after paying Key's 2 to draw, with this current build you often have to choose between not using Key's effect or losing a turn because you don't have enough mana to play any card.

I was running this, basically a combination of your SOI and KLD versions. I don't have AHK or Origins yet.

16 1-drop
2 Flameblade Adept
4 Insolent Neonate
2 Bomat Courier
2 Lightning Axe
2 Shock
4 Fiery Temper (lol)

16 2-drop
2 Scourge Wolf
2 Kari Zev, Skyship Raider
4 Thriving Grubs
2 Smuggler's Copter
2 Key to the City
2 Senseless Rage
2 [card]Avacyn's Judgement[card]

6 3-drop
2 [card]Lathnu Hellion[/card]
3 Brazen Scourge
1 Insult

22 Mountain

The Flameblade Adept would be a Goblin Glory-Chaser if I had it :3 -- I think the Adept is worth it just by being a 1-drop with menace that can temporarily grow larger but I'm not entirely sold on it.

I *really* don't like Distemper and I'm reluctant to run those bad vampire 2-drops, feels like I would be justifying bad cards with other bad cards. Senseless Rage is pretty decent actually, I usually get 1 or 2 attacks in before it's destroyed and it forces the opponent to remove creatures he'd usually spare.

The best part of madness engine is, in my honest opinion, to ability to discard unnecessary lands, I can confidently run 22 Mountains. Whenever I tried swapping 2 Mountain for 2 Vampires/Madness cards I always wound up doing unnecessary mulligans, losing cards and sometimes games for nothing.

I'm running 2+3+2+2=10 removal, 8 of which can go to face. I think it has good synergy with the 2+4+2=8 menace creatures and the 5 haste creatures, I think the deck gets incredible reach when you add Copter and Key to the Equation, so much fun! With this I can go full aggro "Red Deck Wins", I dropped the Chandra P-Walker.

I don't think I can live without Lightning Axe.

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PostPosted: Sun May 21, 2017 7:01 pm 
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Well, I took El Loco in the mid-range direction and went and ran it in the showdown. I honestly don't expect to do very well, control has been kicking my butt. Twice I've killed Gearhulk and Disciple only to get killed by manlands... I did flood heavily this Last game though...
Anyway, I've been meaning to go in the completely opposite direction and make El Loco even more aggro and voilá:

El Loquito
Creature(23)
2 x Bomat Courier
2 x Goblin Glory Chaser
3 x Insolent Neonate
3 x Flameblade Adept
2 x Abbot of Keral Keep
2 x Ravenous Bloodseeker
2 x Furyblade Vampire
2 x Kari Zev, Skyship Raider
2 x Bloodrage Brawler
2 x Bloodmad Vampire
1 x Chandra, Fire of Kaladesh

Instant(10)
4 x Titan's Strength
4 x Fiery Temper
2 x Pursue Glory

Sorcery(2)
2 x Distemper of the Blood

Enchantment(2)
2 x Cartouche of Zeal

Artifact(5)
2 x Key to the City
2 x Smuggler's Copter
1 x Hazoret's Monument

Land(18)
14 x Mountain
4 x Looming Spires


To view this deck go to: https://www.magicduelshelper.com/deckli ... 0909eebca7

Created using Magic Duels Helper: http://www.magicduelshelper.com

The engine is much the same as El Loco Extreme, with the keys and discard/madness pulling card advantage, but here I'm trying out the Monument as extra fuel and an ultra-low low curve, because red has so many good evasive 1-drops.
Another card that has been over-looked and seems perfect for the deck is Pursue Glory. Sure, it could be cheaper, but cycling is exactly what pumps need when a pump is no good to you...
The potential for T4 kills is there, although unlikely with all the cheap removal being played.
Very low Land count to keep the gas coming (I may actually try replacing Land with maps to play even less Land and filter the deck as you play (crazy idea but it may work...) and then add apprentices perhaps...

Edit: forget the monument. Its official, it sucks. Trading it out for a lightning axe.

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PostPosted: Sat Jun 03, 2017 12:38 am 
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Haven_pt wrote:
I am proud to announce the return of El Loco!

I put this deck together to test some possible new additions to the El Loco beatdown philosophy and wow...
It went 8-2 on the ladder (1 loss was mostly due to a really stupid misclick on my part and the other was a mulligan to 4, that I nearly won)

I'll do a card by card analysis, even though this isn't really a final build yet:
El Loco RDW 4.0

Creature(21)
2x Bomat Courier (early hitter and card advantage. Great for drawing removal away from bigger threats. Don't be afraid to ditch your hand if your holding crap or it will net you more cards than you currently have)
2x Insolent Neonate (A prime 1-drop in a madness build, the more mid-range version of El Loco ran out of room for a full set)
1x Flameblade Adept (competes with the neonate and Glory seeker, who didn't make the cut. The deck has enough Discard to make it do work)
2x Scourge Wolf (Here's a card people have forgotten. 2cc 2/2 with first strike is good by itself, double-strike which is very attainable with all the Discard is sweet. Has already won me a couple of games, especially with Insult)
2x Kari Zev, Skyship Raider (another removal lightning rod, that nearly always gets some damage in. You gotta love the monkey... Beware caravans)
3x Ahn-Crop Crasher (So much better than I expected. Great for killing walkers who try to protect themselves with tokens and getting menace damage in.
2x Lathnu Hellion (just like a Firecraft that hits twice. When youropponent uses removal on it, you know he's in trouble)
1x Chandra, Fire of Kaladesh (mono-red... Draw out that removal or ping-flip ftw. Only flipped her once in the 10 games, but it was fairly easy)
2x Impetuous Devils (how I missed the Devils... Nothing like a 6/1 trampler to lower that lifetotal)
1x Akoum Firebird (with all the haste in the deck, current into the birdies on T4 puts you into a very good place)
1x Hazoret the Fervent (hasn't shown up much, but she's indestructable... Dithching cards shouldn't be too hard)
2x Glorybringer (Glorybringer isn't good. Its a f@cking monster. With all the must remove threats the deck plays, he sticks around much longer than you'd believe. And the exert is really interesting, because your opponent usually refrains from killing it when it doesn't untap, only to come to regretting it later... Also a card opponents don't really expect in RDW)

Instant(6)
2x Lightning Axe (got to have something that kills Skysovereign. I've been wrecked too many times by the flying boat to not respect it. Really good with a temper)
4x Fiery Temper (Copter's best friend. Kept a hand with 3 tempers, Insult and 3 lands. I was playing against boros humans. Poor sod...)

Sorcery(6)
3x Distemper of the Blood (not a stellar card, but effective and great madness value. One game I had Glorybringer on the board, I cast Insult and Distemper on the Glorybringer... He was at 13 life. He went to 1, Injury did the coup-de-grace next turn.)
2x Exquisite Firecraft (another forgotten golden oldie... Uncounterable... Never forget)
1x Collective Defiance (still good even though its outclassed by Unlicensed Disintegration, but this is mono-red)

Split(1)
1x Insult (Has worked great so far, but I wouldn't play more than a singleton)

Artifact(4)
2x Key to the City (key to the card advantage)
2x Smuggler's Copter (The most Common T2 play in Duels)

Land(22) (I used to Dread seeing more than 4 lands with precious el loco builds. Not anymore)
18x Mountain
3x Looming Spires (0cc pump? Extra damage? First strike? Sign me up!)
1x Sunscorched Desert (why not? The negate impact is minimize and its an extra uncounterable point of damage that may just win you the game or least put you that little bit closer to winning)

To view this deck go to: https://www.magicduelshelper.com/deckli ... 92170e7a29

Created using Magic Duels Helper: http://www.magicduelshelper.com

I'm currently testing an Avacyn's Judgment for a Distemper. I'd really like to put a Bloodmad vamp or 2 in there. They're really nasty in the el loco Extreme build and work really well with the keys and crashers.

Enjoy!


I took this deck (with Avacyn's Judgment instead of Distemper) for a spin on the ladder and won two games. Both games were against the same guy who was running an unusual Mardu deck that had Bomat Courier + Kambal + Gisela (?). This is not enough to make concrete comments on most of the cards, but my impressions are that it's quite scattered. Why the singleton Flameblade Adept for example instead of more Insolent Neonates? Other thoughts:

I think Glorybringer with 22 lands is too ambitious. The card is great, but in my games it also wound up getting discarded (for Copter, etc) more often than not since I'd be a long way from casting them. I'd avoid running 5-drops with anything less than 24 lands.

Scourge Wolf is unusual but has been effective. I was kinda expecting to see Abbot of Keral Keep here as the standard RDW card advantage creature, but you do have few instants and sorceries.

Insult // Injury has been quite strong. Doubling the power of all your creatures is formidable, with auxiliary benefits of blocking lifelink and two points worth of burn later in the game. I would consider two. If, e.g., you get to attack with an unblocked Copter, Insult is at least a 3-point burn spell, not much worse than Exquisite Firecraft.

I like Collective Defiance better than Exquisite Firecraft in this build (it's also a card I have more experience with), but didn't play against counterspells.

Lathnu Hellion might be too aggressive. The deck is aggressive, but not that aggressive. If you were an 18-land RDW deck then yeah, but if your curve is going up to stable and strong creatures like Glorybringer and Hazoret, it might not be worth it. Kinda like Mardu Vehicles running Lathnu Hellion. Impetous Devils is in the same mould as Lathnu Hellion, but it will at least take down a creature with it.

PS Keep making these decks so each time I have to do "cast red spells" quests, I can netdeck :D


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PostPosted: Sat Jun 03, 2017 6:42 am 
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Banedon wrote:
Haven_pt wrote:
I am proud to announce the return of El Loco!

I put this deck together to test some possible new additions to the El Loco beatdown philosophy and wow...
It went 8-2 on the ladder (1 loss was mostly due to a really stupid misclick on my part and the other was a mulligan to 4, that I nearly won)

I'll do a card by card analysis, even though this isn't really a final build yet:
El Loco RDW 4.0

Creature(21)
2x Bomat Courier (early hitter and card advantage. Great for drawing removal away from bigger threats. Don't be afraid to ditch your hand if your holding crap or it will net you more cards than you currently have)
2x Insolent Neonate (A prime 1-drop in a madness build, the more mid-range version of El Loco ran out of room for a full set)
1x Flameblade Adept (competes with the neonate and Glory seeker, who didn't make the cut. The deck has enough Discard to make it do work)
2x Scourge Wolf (Here's a card people have forgotten. 2cc 2/2 with first strike is good by itself, double-strike which is very attainable with all the Discard is sweet. Has already won me a couple of games, especially with Insult)
2x Kari Zev, Skyship Raider (another removal lightning rod, that nearly always gets some damage in. You gotta love the monkey... Beware caravans)
3x Ahn-Crop Crasher (So much better than I expected. Great for killing walkers who try to protect themselves with tokens and getting menace damage in.
2x Lathnu Hellion (just like a Firecraft that hits twice. When youropponent uses removal on it, you know he's in trouble)
1x Chandra, Fire of Kaladesh (mono-red... Draw out that removal or ping-flip ftw. Only flipped her once in the 10 games, but it was fairly easy)
2x Impetuous Devils (how I missed the Devils... Nothing like a 6/1 trampler to lower that lifetotal)
1x Akoum Firebird (with all the haste in the deck, current into the birdies on T4 puts you into a very good place)
1x Hazoret the Fervent (hasn't shown up much, but she's indestructable... Dithching cards shouldn't be too hard)
2x Glorybringer (Glorybringer isn't good. Its a f@cking monster. With all the must remove threats the deck plays, he sticks around much longer than you'd believe. And the exert is really interesting, because your opponent usually refrains from killing it when it doesn't untap, only to come to regretting it later... Also a card opponents don't really expect in RDW)

Instant(6)
2x Lightning Axe (got to have something that kills Skysovereign. I've been wrecked too many times by the flying boat to not respect it. Really good with a temper)
4x Fiery Temper (Copter's best friend. Kept a hand with 3 tempers, Insult and 3 lands. I was playing against boros humans. Poor sod...)

Sorcery(6)
3x Distemper of the Blood (not a stellar card, but effective and great madness value. One game I had Glorybringer on the board, I cast Insult and Distemper on the Glorybringer... He was at 13 life. He went to 1, Injury did the coup-de-grace next turn.)
2x Exquisite Firecraft (another forgotten golden oldie... Uncounterable... Never forget)
1x Collective Defiance (still good even though its outclassed by Unlicensed Disintegration, but this is mono-red)

Split(1)
1x Insult (Has worked great so far, but I wouldn't play more than a singleton)

Artifact(4)
2x Key to the City (key to the card advantage)
2x Smuggler's Copter (The most Common T2 play in Duels)

Land(22) (I used to Dread seeing more than 4 lands with precious el loco builds. Not anymore)
18x Mountain
3x Looming Spires (0cc pump? Extra damage? First strike? Sign me up!)
1x Sunscorched Desert (why not? The negate impact is minimize and its an extra uncounterable point of damage that may just win you the game or least put you that little bit closer to winning)

To view this deck go to: https://www.magicduelshelper.com/deckli ... 92170e7a29

Created using Magic Duels Helper: http://www.magicduelshelper.com

I'm currently testing an Avacyn's Judgment for a Distemper. I'd really like to put a Bloodmad vamp or 2 in there. They're really nasty in the el loco Extreme build and work really well with the keys and crashers.

Enjoy!


I took this deck (with Avacyn's Judgment instead of Distemper) for a spin on the ladder and won two games. Both games were against the same guy who was running an unusual Mardu deck that had Bomat Courier + Kambal + Gisela (?). This is not enough to make concrete comments on most of the cards, but my impressions are that it's quite scattered. Why the singleton Flameblade Adept for example instead of more Insolent Neonates? Other thoughts:

I think Glorybringer with 22 lands is too ambitious. The card is great, but in my games it also wound up getting discarded (for Copter, etc) more often than not since I'd be a long way from casting them. I'd avoid running 5-drops with anything less than 24 lands.

Scourge Wolf is unusual but has been effective. I was kinda expecting to see Abbot of Keral Keep here as the standard RDW card advantage creature, but you do have few instants and sorceries.

Insult // Injury has been quite strong. Doubling the power of all your creatures is formidable, with auxiliary benefits of blocking lifelink and two points worth of burn later in the game. I would consider two. If, e.g., you get to attack with an unblocked Copter, Insult is at least a 3-point burn spell, not much worse than Exquisite Firecraft.

I like Collective Defiance better than Exquisite Firecraft in this build (it's also a card I have more experience with), but didn't play against counterspells.

Lathnu Hellion might be too aggressive. The deck is aggressive, but not that aggressive. If you were an 18-land RDW deck then yeah, but if your curve is going up to stable and strong creatures like Glorybringer and Hazoret, it might not be worth it. Kinda like Mardu Vehicles running Lathnu Hellion. Impetous Devils is in the same mould as Lathnu Hellion, but it will at least take down a creature with it.

PS Keep making these decks so each time I have to do "cast red spells" quests, I can netdeck :D


Great to see you had some fun with the deck. The showdown version has a couple of changes (distempers are out for Judgments and Bloodmads). I'm not too pleased with the deck though. The main card I'm considering atm is actually walking Ballista. It fits the burn theme and is flexible at any point of a game.

Flameblade: What I like is the extra toughness. Lilly f@cks up my 1 drops all too often, as does Ballista. It works well with the key too. Main problem is go-wide zombies/thopters/tokens is pretty Common, so menace is ineffective. Same goes with Most of the deck. I hate it when I see pias and engineers and crap like that.

Oddly enough, I flood very often with 22 Land decks. I even flood with 18 Land decks. I've come to a point were I don't make decks with more than 24 Lands, no matter what the math says (btw, I call flooding drawing well over 50% Land). So with 22 Land I can cast Glorybringer pretty often in my testing. Anyway, its usually a card I don't mind holding onto and casting later (especially when removal has been spent).
I'm on the fence with Devils. I love the card, but Instant speed removal cripples it. When opp makes the mistake of tapping out... Ouch. Otherwise... Its too little, too late all too often. I'm considering cruisers for them.

I aggree Insult is a bomb. The extra one went in the sideboard. I'm not really sure how I'd feel to have both in my openning hand though... You need some presence on the board or lots of mana for it to kick ass.

Hellion is basically a burn spell. Its a 2x firecraft. If he blocks, its removal, if he lets it through, its burn to face. I think the deck needs to get opponent down to around 10 life very fast and Hellion is a great way to do that.

Scourge Wolf is tech. Initially I was going to include more pumps and first-strike with 2 toughness (see lilly comment above) is good. With keys and discard and artifacts that eat removal, delirium is achievable, so with a key you can make him hit for 4 or 8 with Insult. Been good so far, maybe better than Kari who just eats removal all day long.

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PostPosted: Mon Jun 05, 2017 7:12 am 
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Your deck-building philosophy is rather different from mine ...

Walking Ballista - I would definitely not run this card. Being flexible on the curve is plausible for midrange decks, but not for aggro decks. Dropping a 1/1 on turn 2 is insanely poor and will lose you all your tempo. The other attraction of Walking Ballista is that it's a late-game mana sink, but this deck really isn't looking for mana sinks that are this inefficient. If you really wanted those I'd look at Pia Nalaar instead.

Flameblade - Liliana is Liliana, but there's only one of her in the opposing deck at most. Ballista shouldn't matter. If they use 2 mana to kill your 1-drop, you've gained. I didn't play enough games to see which the best 1-drop is, but after identifying it, I'd just play maximum copies of that.

Glorybringer - fair enough but don't forget, if you have uncastable cards in your hand, Hazoret can't attack, and its active ability is quite weak.

Fleetwheel vs. Devils - that's a good point. I completely didn't think of Fleetwheel. I would definitely give it a try. That said Devils doubles as a removal spell and both are vulnerable to instant-speed removal so it's not clearcut.

Insult - the odds of having both Insult in your opening hand is pretty low, so I think it's still worth it, especially if the card is good. In the same way, standard decks run 4x Gideon. You don't want to draw too many, but drawing one is so much better than drawing zero that you run four anyway.

Hellion - yes Hellion is basically a burn spell, but does this deck even want burn spells? As mentioned, you have strong and stable creatures that can close the game. I don't see why you say the deck wants to get the opponent to around 10 life very fast. Of course it wants to get the opponent low as fast as possible, but why this mark? It's not like being at 10 life makes them more vulnerable to some mechanic in your deck. If you run into an even more aggressive deck (imaginable, since your curve goes up to five) then Hellion is almost a dead card. I'm not convinced, but you've probably played with the card a lot more than I do.


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PostPosted: Mon Jun 05, 2017 8:52 am 
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Well, to answer some of your questions, I would start by saying that this deck isn't aggro. It plays somewhere between mid-range and burn. That's why I'm thinking in that direction. It has way too few 1-drops and 2 drops to really be aggro (as opposed to the El Loquito build I posted that is very much aggro).

Hazoret has been kind of crap. Seem to always draw her when I can't turn her on and when I need her she never shows up. My 2nd game in round 1 of the showdown against scum is a classic example. I didn't ditch her to axe thinking I'd make her unblockable next turn ftw and opp finds a way to make me sac her...

The 10 life points is a halfway mark. It is a completely arbitrary point, but in my experience, its more or less that sweet point were opps get nervous and start playing defensively. It is also usually 1 card or 1 hit away from burn range, so as a gauge for chances of winning, if you don't get your opponent to around 10ish in the first 5/6 turns, your probably going to lose.

As for Ballista, it seems like a good fit. Direct damage is useful, clearing thopters improves menace evasion and I often have plenty of Land and want to top deck burn and don't have much else to do with all the mana.

As for liliana, she's a Mythic but she is played in most decks with black. I've lost enough games to T3 lilly that she's a pain in the ass. This deck can handle her with burn, but it'll slow you down and lose you card advantage along the way, which will put you in a bad place. The game against scum is another good example of this.

As for Hellion, Its an early pressure card. There aren't too many blockers that can stop it T3, so it will usually hit face or get chumper. Push won't usually kill it unless its post-combat, leaving Grasp or blessed alliance as the only removal spells that can hit it. Blessed alliance is great, because at that point you opp can't gain life aswell and in any case, if he blocks removal on a Hellion that is going to die anyway... Its usually a sign: either he has a sh@t load of removal or his scared of leaving life total get too low.

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PostPosted: Sun Jul 02, 2017 8:29 pm 
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I don't know the card pool well enough, or at all really, but has anyone come up with a decent mono red control deck? I'm looking for something like Born of Flame from D13.


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PostPosted: Tue Jul 04, 2017 3:18 am 
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[url=/viewtopic.php?p=571944#p571944]ii AyJay o[/url] wrote:
I don't know the card pool well enough, or at all really, but has anyone come up with a decent mono red control deck? I'm looking for something like Born of Flame from D13.

It wouldn't be hard to build but you gain so much card draw just adding :u:. Control decks need card advantage or they just eventually run out of answers and lose the game. Long gone are the days when burn all the things sweepers are enough card advantage to win you the game. Mardu vehicle decks alone killed those control decks off but there are so many other ways of gaining card advantage playing aggro, even embalm decks wouldn't get too excited about losing their board to sweepers. Not many ways to draw cards in :r: outside of Chandra. Cycling a plenty but not much draw.

If you like control one of my favorite decks for the last couple months is based on a deck modulo shared with me, :r::u: and splash :w: Jeski control.

viewtopic.php?f=61&t=18762

If you like midrange temur energy is a good deck.

If you really like mono-red but more mid-range instead of control then maybe this thread is for you.
viewtopic.php?f=61&t=18629

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PostPosted: Thu Jul 06, 2017 3:37 pm 
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Cool, I'll give them all a try! I like the look of that mid-rangey mono red deck. Kinda reminds me of Stoner Strength from D12.


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