Triumph is bad, no matter how many people want to try and trump it up.

Everything about the card works against itself.

It is a card that requires you to be playing high power creatures to keep it activated, but requires you to take time off not playing creatures to do so.

It is a card that only works when you already control the highest power creature on the table, at which point there is a good chance you are ahead to begin with.

Playing Triumph instead of a creature is more often than not just the incorrect call.

Imagine we have a Thoctar on the table on T3.

Would we rather be playing another Thoctar on T4, or Triumph.

We want to get Triumph out as early as possible to get the most use out of it as we can, but doing so means significantly slowing the clock we have our opponents on. It also leaves us MORE vulnerable to removal. If we play that Triumph instead of the second Thoctar a single removal spell not only completely halts the clock we put them on, but we don't even get the benefit of an extra card from Triumph.

In literally like 99% of the cases where you are stopping to cast Triumph, you either would be better off playing a big threat instead (to keep your opponent on a tight clock) or you already have dominance of the board and those extra cards really aren't even needed.

Packleader is just flat out better in these decks. It provides a much less conditional source of draw for the deck, and still allows you to beat down or block if needed.

eon ftw.

Also, after you draw two cards off your Triumph, congratulations are in order - you just cast the slowest Divination ever. Most opponents I play against never get to draw two cards, btw.

Beast, I've seen the card plenty, I just didn't know its name. Which says a lot cuz you don't forget what good cards are called.

To answer your question on think twice, it's worse than think twice cuz think twice isn't mainphased and doesn't kill your curving

Then play the other Thoctar and drop it later.. problem solved.

Hakeem: You play against scrubs most of the.time (we all do really). Good players can make it work..

Hey guys, what an awesome card! The key is not to play it until you LITERALLY have nothing else better to do with your mana. Then, when you're already ahead, it just wins the game for you! Rawr!

Tier One card, super-awesome tech, should be in every green deck evah.

-signed, Timmy

PS. Timmy hates Divination, but Triumph is awesome, Rawr!

Hakeem's back!!! I missed him

Even then you would often be better off playing another creature instead and the higher and higher you make it in your curve, the more and more valuable those creatures become.

If you are taking time off on T7 to play it, would it not have been better served as something like Pelakka Wurm instead, which actually represents a threat AND gives you value beyond the body?

The only place I can really see Triumph being good is during a board stall where an opponent has a ton of chumps and your big creature can't make it though, in which case Triumph provides you more gas to get there. Most of the time this happens though it boils down to decks running a bunch of big dumb creatures with no thought on how to actually make them get through. Many of Greens big threats have stuff like Trample (Pelakka, Stomper, Craterhoof) anyways which makes Triumph even more irrelevant in these scenarios (since if you have a creature that triggers Triumph, there is a good chance it has SOME form of evasion).

I still feel like Packleader is better there because it represents the potential to beat down as well. Packleader isn't just an engine, it is a threat. It allows you to have the draw engine without forcing you to take time off from dropping these big undercosted threats (which lets be honest, is what these Naya Zoo type decks are all about).

Or.. play it when you're at 6 mana with another Cultivate/Thoctar to start restocking for the final push.

Who said they hate Divination? I thought we were talking about D15 and 'all my statements should be.considered in that context'. SMH.

Packleader is NOT a threat. He's a goon that sits on the board and never attacks bc he's scared of a Necromancers Assistant and a Satyr Wayfinder tag teaming him. Talk about taking a turn off.

That's it, I'm reporting the trolling.....

Good. Don't forget to report yourself for spamming the forum with garbage Dimir Unearth decks

Then you are using Packleader wrong >.>

Also, just for poops and giggles:

Packleader onto an open board starts attacking for 4 the following turn.

Triumph onto an open board does literally nothing at all but waste mana and potentially your turn.

I just want to point out that it is clear from most of these statements that no one on this board is ever stuck at 3 mana and needing gas to get to 4/5. There is no way that a 3 CMC card should ever be in the same discussion as a 5 CMC card. The 5 CMC card should be better, every, single, time, obviously (although in this case, it may still be up for debate - probably not though). However, maybe that 5 CMC card never gets played, because you never get to 5 mana in the first place.

Also, we are all talking about playing big threats like you can just replace 3 triumphs with 5-6-7-8-9-10-100 CMC cards, but you can't.

I'd want to know what card ought to be taking Triumph's place that is at least nearly the same CMC, and isn't already in the deck. That's just me though. /shrug

I want to know why Triumph was printed.

Cards can and SHOULD be compared to higher CMC cards when taken in the context of WHEN they are being played.

Wooly Thoctar played on T3 is a much better than Wooly Thoctar on T7. This is the same argument I had with some folks about Fusion Elemental.

These types of decks thrive off of gaining an advantage in tempo. Be it by playing undercosted fat on curve like Thoctar and Nacatyl, or by playing cards like Cultivate which jump them ahead on mana to allow them to start dropping higher class creatures sooner.

Do people just not understand how tempo works?

Playing cards like Triumph does nothing but slow down how fast your deck can get there.

In some cases, this is worth it because it provides a reliable fall back if you CANT get there off the tempo.

But Triumph is just way too conditional to be worth that as far as I am concerned, especially when we have Packleader which fills the same role and isn't a complete tempo sink.


Edit: To elaborate a little better.

If on average you are waiting until you have 6 mana on the table to cast Triumph, then the card could just as easily have been a 6 drop itself, which is likely to provide you more immediate and potentially overall value than playing Triumph will.

Or what I am saying is. If you spend an entire game with Triumph in your grip and only end up casting it on T6, then you probably would have gotten a better value for your mana just running something like Inferno Titan (or insert other high value 6 drop here) in its place.

Open boards at 5+ mana? What game are you playing? Post Cleansing? I'd rather drop Triumph and a 3 drop and say "gimme your best shot.. so I can Ground Assault it." This will make the opponent drop their Ace they've been holding onto.. which plays right into your hands. Don't sit here and act like Packleader is some combat nightmare like Baneslayer Angel.. especially you Hakeem. I watched all your Naya vids.. that byatch just sits there as a card draw engine.. nothing more.

I also agree with DJ about comparing a 3 drop to a 5 drop.. and his land argument.. but I haven't had that happen very often.

I'm headed down the runway.. I'm half tempted to pay 7$ for the internet to argue with you goons. Talk to y'all in 3 hours.. bishes

That would be why I prefaced with "for poops and giggles" anyways, I would prefer having 2 creatures posts Cleansing. You play your Triumph and 3 drop, I play a single removal spell and you are potentially out of gas AND Triumph does nothing for you.

If I had 2 creatures in that scenarios I could cast one, the opponent removes it, and still have at least another threat in my grip to drop the following turn to continue progressing the clock.

I am not acting like Packleader is some super combat creature, but a 4/4 is still a significant body, it still can punch for 4 when it is able to, it can still block relatively effectively. The card isn't particularly GREAT as either a beater or an engine, but it serves both functions decently and as I said before, isn't a complete tempo sink.

As for DJ's arguments, I disagree, you most certainly can. As the point I had made before about Fusion Elemental before we had decent mana. If you are dropping him on T5 then he is actually pretty good, but if you are unable to cast him (at the time it was due to mana) until T7 then the card may as well have been something like Pelakka Wurm, which for the most part outclasses Fusion Elemental in total value and is often just a better use of mana. Assuming the opponent is able to progress their mana at roughly the same rate you are, then that is certainly what it is going to be matched up against. If you aren't casting Fusion Elemental till T7, then it may as well be a 7 drop, because that is likely what it is going to be facing up against. If you have 7 mana there is a decent chance that your opponent has 7 mana, or close to it at least. Which means what you play on 7 is going to have to be compared to what they play on 7. If you are playing a 3 drop on 7 and your opponent is playing a 7 drop that same turn, you aren't likely to be in a good position.

This can be made up for by going wide, which is what lower curve decks tend to do but this directly goes against what Triumph is doing, since it isn't helping you to go wide, as a matter of fact, it is actively working against it because it isn't a threat itself.

As for mana, if I was stuck at 3 mana, I most certainly would not want to be trying to rely on Triumph to get me out of that hole, and as for something to just play out on T3 I would much have something that actually provides some board presence to either help keep me alive until I DO hit my mana, or keep the pressure on until I can hit another cheap threat to close things out.

Eon wins because Triumph of Verbosity.

Hey guys just wanted to share my naya deck with you all. The deck starts strong in the early game with a ton of threats and just doesn't let up from there. Lots of stuff that cant be countered for those pesky counter spell lovers late game. 2 x Banefire 4 x Resounding Thunder 2 x Genesis Hydra. The strong early game + uncounterable late game make it very hard to stop. This is a good deck for beginners due to the just play monsters and turn sideways style of it. Also every card in the deck once you get the mana can activate Garruk's Packleader giving you decent draw outside of Hunter's Prowess