Where are you on the angelic edict question?

I'm considering -2 Charge, -2 edict, +4 Attended Knight.

I already pulled the 9th tap land.

Edit: Cathar stays. Or at least gets replaced with another one drop. I really want it for the better likely hood of having at least 2 creatures out by turn 3.

I just wanted to post this for reference... most of the recent posts in this thread have been for shiftmancer/control decks. I don't have extensive experience with Yertle's deck, but I do consider him a strong player and he swears by this build.

I do not think blue adds enough to white board flood / pump strategies to be worth adding. If you start adding evasive blue creatures to make military intelligence work, then they miss out on some of the pump spells (Paragon, +1/+1 artifact).

If you are going to run with U/W board flood then I recommend vapor snag. Low mana costs are critical for getting as many bodies on the board as you can, as quickly as you can. Edict is too slow IMO.

Edict; in this sort of deck, is typically too slow. White has some other removal options and blue has some tempo options all of which are cheaper and therefore available much sooner (when you need them). Consider your games NEED to be won (or in the bag) by; latest, turn...6? 7? (yes weird things happen and you still squeak out wins after that but it's the law of diminishing returns and your odds go way down). In this case, you should be looking to play your finisher(s) at the time Edict would be available and should have been using your removal/tempo options to set this stage of the game up.


elk

That seems to be the consensus, thanks. I'm trying it later today with -1 land, -2 edict, -2 charge (which I'm not that sure about), +4 Attended Knight. I may revert to +2 Charge, forget about the knights and just run Baneslayer, + something big. I need to take a look at the mana situation, and make a decision based on that.

I really don't like all the tap lands here considering your blue costs are stupid low

Fair enough, but the only question is whether they get in the way, or whether they only add consistency. In my experience, they do not get in the way of the deck at all. I want to consistently play MI on T3, and on T3 I want to have two creatures in play. There is no combination of cards that I could draw with the exception of the extremely rare 3 taplands where I couldn't play around my hand to ensure MI (assuming I even have it) on T3. (I did drop one from the current build, but I just don't have any proper justification for safely dropping my number of U mana bellow 12 sources).

A lot of people have been helping me (or at least discussing this build), and I've adjusted it somewhat. I need to post an update.

AHHHHH yes, Azorius Control... ... ... here it is.



So this really is a pure control deck. I'd like some help with it. Bottom line, keep your opponent from doing much of anything, then play threats and kill him/her after 20-30 turns. This is a bit of a difficult deck to play, because you have to know your clock at all times when making decisions. But, it's fun (in a totally boring kind of way).

Anyway, help me make this betterererererererererrrrr.

I have tested Arrest and I do not consider it worthy of control. I think it works fine in more tempo oriented decks where your primary goal is just to remove a blocker. But control games are supposed to last a loong time, your opponent has plenty of time to figure out how to play around arrest. Divine verdict at least destroys a creature, but I would be pretty uncomfortable with relying on

You already have 3 negates to deal with artifacts and enchantments, plus 2 planar cleansing. That is more hate than is available to 99% of the decks in the meta. Dump solemn offering, and don't look back.

For control to work, you need to establish early board control. All the counterspells in the world won't help you if your opponent is beating on you turn after turn with a few weenies he cast early on. Honestly I would lean more heavily on voyage's end here. It is card disadvantage but the scry helps.

I don't like traumatic visions too much in 2 color decks - the mana fixing isn't helpful. Why not pay 1 more for counterlash and add the 7 mana lifegain angel.
Overall I think the shiftmancer combo decks are better, Archaeomancer + cloudshift provides a lot of utility.

The deck is better than that. Try it first. (Or don't, ;-))

Just some thoughts on what you've said though. Arrest is fine here, as it holds off your enemy's advance. Negates protect my creatures primarily. Offering is lifegain, which may save you in control, and only two copies. Early board is a problem, but not if its limited to the first two turns worth of plays (except against the worst luck draw aggro ever). Visions is primarily additional hard counters (believe it or not), but you're right, I should consider counterlash instead.

Not so sure shiftmancer decks are better. No piece of their combo gets into play against this deck, unless I have terribad luck.

Edit: I might prefer the 4/6 lifegain vigilance over the 6/6 flier with draw though.

Edit2: really wishing we had remand... /sigh

If you are playing negate primarily to protect your creatures, then you should really try 4x voyage's end - same mana cost to leave open but it adds scry. You may have to re-cast your creature, but the tempo loss is really unimportant to a control deck. Generally I don't start casting creatures in a deck like this until my opponent has exhausted all their threats anyway.

Offering - this card is just bad in this meta... I take lifegain seriously but offering is a dead card in too many matchups. Killing and countering creatures is enough 95% of the time, you have hard counters to prevent non-creatures from resolving, and if all else fails planar cleansing deals with any problem on the board. The lifegain card I would recommend is resolute archangel, especially with counterlash.

Re: the comparison to shiftmancer, I wasn't making the comparison in the sense of which deck would beat the other in a duel. You made a hard control deck, shiftmancer is a combo deck with a medium control element. That is basically the best possible matchup for hard control decks. But early removal is the achille's heel of your deck, I just wince when I see 3x righteous blow and 4x arrest as the only board interaction below 5 mana.

You could also add Obelisk and add a little bit of black - the white, blue and black activations are probably the most important for a control deck.

I don't think the scry makes up for the card disadvantage here. As for offering, I think it's meta dependent. I'm constantly seeing enchants, and artifacts. 4 life is a big deal here. Even if it's late game to destroy an arrest I placed (terrible play, I know). Obelisk is a possible replacement to any of the finishers, but I don't think it's as good.

Edit: I didn't answer some of your thoughts as well as I could. The deck has answers for just about everything. When I tested it online, the only game I lost (out of 4) lasted ~30 turns, and I never drew any of my bombs (and not much card draw either). I'd have won if any of my bombs had come up. Also, when I finally drew a draw card, after those 30 turns, I stupidly targeted the opponent, so I'm not even sure I'd have lost (I really hate that system, btw).

edit2: Arrest is also nice, btw, because it has synergy (albeit minor) with Soul of Ravnica as it will count as a white permanent to give you that 1 extra card draw. fwiw

edit3: so I guess the better question here, is how do improve the removal/control package on this deck? I accept that Solemn Offering could possibly go, but I do like the small life gain, and I believe it's valid against a lot of/most (non-pure agro) decks. I'd be interested in any suggestions that stay within my two colors, are not inherent card disadvantage, and ideally are cheaper. I just wish we had some cantrips that were relevant, but I guess we don't - le sigh.

Question: should I consider courier's capsule over think twice - or inspiration? it doesn't exile, and it has lower mana requirements per turn, but it's also not instant, so it's a bit later game. thoughts?

When deciding on an option in a pure control build of Courier's Capsule vs Think Twice. I say Think Twice. You get deeper into your deck sooner. Plus Think Twice plays far nicer with your counterspells. I also feel you should work in the two exalted angels. I would want a couple additional bombs here and they are your best option.

Fair enough, I certainly considered them, and I'm still not sure which bombs to use, or the 'right' number of them (e.g.: 2-5). When I played this deck, it was absolutely oppressive to the opponent. They just couldn't get anything out, at all. And when I finally dropped a bomb (on say for example t20), I was typically holding answers to just about anything they might try to do to my bombs. This is due to the fact that the whole deck is pretty much trying to counter what they do, so I'm not sure a better (or more) threat density does anything positive for the deck. BUT, I do know that I really enjoyed this deck when I was playing it.

The opponents were just totally demoralized. In fact, I've had the opponents kill themselves a few times just to end the torture. lol

Updated the deck a bit, it's really worth a try boys and girls, in the last 12 hours I've won something like 10-15 games in a row with it. Yeah, I know... taplands, etc... just play around them, they aren't causing me any trouble.



Updated from: viewtopic.php?p=290090#p290090

You do, very rarely, get a bad draw, and having more than 1 inspired charge in your hand feels bad at times, so if you really hate the idea of having 4 in the deck - which doesn't bother me in the slightest. Replace 2 of them with 2 attended knights. I do not agree, at all, with this change, but I know someone will bring it up.

Eight taplands for three blue cards. Seems worth it.

Edit: actually, forget everything below... Consistency in a deck IS worth it. Honestly, that's enough said.

Military intelligence t3 consistently IS worth it. It's an out and out game winner. You're a better builder/player than that, think about it. Almost every card in the deck is 1 or 2 CMC, and almost every card save is, on its own, able to get me two attackers. You should always have a play that gets around the tap land in hand, so it's a non issue. With the exception, of the obvious mulligan with no early plays and all taplands, they simply add consistency to the deck.

Put another way, I've yet to have the taplands lose me a game, not even once in about 20 games, maybe more. Early turns, I play around them, late turns I don't need the mana anymore, or the opponent is dead anyway.

I get the power of the card, but why not just play monowhite? Intelligence helps you fight Anger which is a two-of in red decks. Against every other deck I think you'd be better served by just playing monowhite.

Also, don't take my sarcasm too seriously.

I tried that, and I was on board with mono-white as the best aggro in the META for a long time - I know people think it's RDW, but I disagreed then, and I still do now. Then I tried this, and it's much better. Mentor is good, but it has inherent synergy issues with the deck, and it's way too flimsy and expensive. MI goes down and you are drawing cards, lots of them. Nothing you're likely to see but a Planar Cleasing can stop you, and odds are they don't get to 6 mana anyway.

Naw, I don't... You're one of my favorite people to argue (and occasionally agree) with on NDA. Also, you're making me a better builder. When you challenge something I do, I think about it more. Sometimes I change my mind, other times I figure out better reasons to stand my ground. Either way, IMO, it's a good thing. ;-)

The deck runs so much better with Radiant Fountains. You can afford a little bit more tap land to pay for the lifegain. I also run at least 25 lands in my versions of this deck, since missing land drops before turn 6-7 loses the game fairly often.