The way I look at it is that this deck is going to lose to fast and wide decks regularly, so jamming in cards to try to improve that matchup ends up weakening it against the decks it should be good against.

If you're playing this against an aggro nut draw or a lot of tokens, you will lose, and there's nothing in the pool in these colors that can save you. Best to just accept that as a weakness and make sure you have plenty of live draws against your midrange and control opponents, I think. And against those opponents this deck is really good.

It's certainly not going to win any tier awards or anything, but I think the addition of Brain Maggot makes the deck playable. Being able to slow your opponent down early then bounce and replay it or cast Undying Evil on it is really strong. Last night I grabbed my opponent's T2 Krenko's Command before he could play it then I chump-blocked while he was on four mana, gave Maggot Undying, and replaced the Indulgent Tormentor in his hand with a Krenko's Command. He cast the Command next turn and then I Mind Rotted him to empty his hand while all he had were two 1/1s in play.

Once your opponent starts playing off the top of his deck, this deck gets a lot better because of all the bounce spells. When they finally draw something you can just slow them down and potentially strip it from their hand. Also, Dinrova Horror becomes hard permanent removal that leaves behind a 4/4. I will be playing this deck with the Mind Rots from hereon out because it really reinforces the discard theme I'm going for and I suggest everyone just give them a small chance before writing them off. I'm only playing three because I don't really want one on T3 and I generally don't want multiples, but I do want to draw into one in basically every game.

Also, Maggot to strip a Cultivate followed by Mind Rot just hoses midrange decks and is common enough. Against control, Mind Rot reads "discard target counterspell or fall way behind".

Also, yynderjohn was right about the Graveborn Muses here. They keep the deck gassed up which is what it needs. For every game it kills you, you'll have ten where it is instrumental to victory. She was a stud for me last night.

Oh I wasn't suggesting that you cram stuff into the low curve (or if it came across that way, then my post was misleading). Just mentioning that's a down side to the deck and what I had done way back when I was running something similar (aggro/tokens have always been the norm for this game and it was frustrating to face regularly - hence the knee-jerk reaction).

The idea though was that I wanted Mind Rot to be a good card (because I have being forced to discard and therefore love doing it to folks ) and the problem was it becomes a dead draw late game. That's why I went to the bounce aspect to give it some use even after your opponent is top decking (it's still strong if you are choosing what they discard versus letting them choose - even if it is just one card).

Any thoughts on the Mercurial Pretender? There usually isn't a lot of shells it fits into well but I always found this theme to be one of them.

elk

Mercurial Pretender is an absolute monster with Dinrova Horror. If you can get up to 9 mana you just basically just win the game because at that point you start making them bounce+discard every turn.

I love them with Rune-scarred Demon as well (although Hakeem doesn't run them in the most recent build). Going Rune-scarred>Rune-scarred>Pretender>Pretender>Sheoldred/Horror/Shadowborn is a pretty big game lol.

I feel like the could be pretty fun with Liliana's Specter as well, forcing a discard every turn if you get up to the mana to bounce and recast Pretender (like I mentioned with Horror above).

I just dislike Pretender. Actually, I hate it. I don't run across opponents playing it often, but when I do it's not ever troublesome and I've actually blown out a few people by removing their only creature in response.

It's just not a very good card. I'll concede that it does look decent in this shell but it's a dead draw on an empty board and too easy for my opponent to interact with overall. If I had a Muse and another creature in play, my opponent could basically kill me by removing my other creature and forcing me to copy my own Muse. I can actually think of a ton of scenarios where I'd hate to draw it so I won't be playing it.

Same could be said for Aura's (removal) or Mind Rot (bad card). I'd still say what's the harm in testing it to see how it preforms but it seems like your mind is quite decided so fair enough.

elk

I played with the card at the M15 prerelease, so I have my share of experience with it. Mind Rot may be bad but I want to play discard so there you have it.

What would you cut for Pretender? Please don't say Mind Rot.

The difference between a 4cmc clone and a 5cmc clone is also pretty big.

Clones can be used to copy a big creature your opponent controls, followed by killing it with removal.
If you have to do both in the same turn, that means you usually need 8 mana, which is a lot more than 7.

Going to give this a spin. I think you have the card draw package of 3 ragers and 2 muses correct. I think the x factor on this deck is what to do with those last 3-4 slots. I'm going to try two Tormentors with a Suffer the past as well. I think this needs a couple of big flyers or a nuke to finish when you have your opponent on the ropes.

Almost seems like we're bantering here (which is not where I wanted this to go )

If I had to pick....I'd say...Min...d.... ummm.... how about a bounce or maybe even an Undying Evil? 7 bounces still seems fine and you've got Dinrova Horror on the top. I'm assuming as long as you hit one or so Undying Evil's your probably happy and 3 should be enough to hit at least 1. Again it's just a test idea (which I don't discount you have experience with - and hopefully it's not coming across like I'm trying to call your experience into question) so pretty much any card at this point to see if it had any desired effect.


elk

Pretender is one of the less spectacular clones in mtg history. Only targeting your own stuff and costing 5 mana for the privilege isn't great. Auras have also failed to impress me, for a similar reason to why Pretender hasn't seemed great to me; it's really easy to get two-for-oned if your opponent isn't greedy as hell and running inadequate removal. Using auras to try and justify a card doesn't seem like the way to go. Also, 9 mana bounce discard combo with dinrova horror is a lot of mana

Mind rot isn't outright bad, mind rotting a guy on 2-3 cards is fairly good, as is double mind rotting someone. It's considered bad because when you don't get it in your opening hand, you will draw it against a guy with no cards in hand and some monster on the field, and you will be sad. Honestly, I'd probably go down to maybe one or two mind rots and add removal or inspirations because of that, but they're not bad in small quantities. Mind rots actually have seen play in standard formats where other decks were masturbating over their 7 drops and going to late game with lots of cards in hand, like the current one. I feel like roughly half the decks I play against in duels go hellbent quite quickly, so three mind rots might be too much.

This clone only copies creatures you control, which is the real reason I can't bring myself to play it.

@elk, what's wrong with some good banter? I could see dropping a bounce spell but I think Undying Evil is a critical spell here. I also like overloading on bounce because it gives me a bit of freedom to bounce my own dudes. Pretender just feels like he would be a liability more than an asset.

@yynderjohn, I was initially scared of the Muse because of the life loss but you convinced me to try it and it was indeed excellent. Perhaps I should revisit my stance on Pretender, too. I did play Suffer the Past instead of Shadowborn Demon last night and it was rarely relevant. My opponent always had a stocked graveyard because of discard but I generally wanted to spend my mana on draw or creature spells rather than hold up Suffer. When I didn't have it, it was never something I wished to draw, either. I agree with the need for a finisher outside of Sheoldred and Tormentor could be decent with the Maggots to strip removal and Undying Evil to protect him. I'm not sure where I would slot it, though.

Maybe I cut Sheoldred and a land for the two Tormentors. She is a bomb but only a singleton.

Yeah Rakshasa's Secret has seen some play. I'm also not opposed to Mind Rot either (I did make a build around it). For this sort of theme, it works although I also think 2 vs. 3 might be the sweet spot (again considering it has late game value with bounce options).


elk

Oh well then...it is on!






elk

I think Sheoldred is a lock for this deck. When she hits its gg. This deck needs 24 land too as you want double black mana Asap. Maybe remove Shadowborn and a bounce for two Tormentors? Like I said this deck as 3-4 cards of wiggle room and its tough deciding.

I'm still testing but not 100% sold on the Mind Rots. Vs aggro decks they usually empty their hands fast enough that maggot and Spector are enough to get them top decking. Vs control. A mindrot isn't enough to bother their draw. Only got 5 games in, will report back later tonight

True, but 9 mana isn't particularly difficult to get to in this format. Even if you don't get to the point where you can loop Pretender, copying Dinrova Horror even just once is still pretty good.

2 for 1 potential aside, I feel like the card doesn't get the respect it deserves in the meta. Sure, it isn't particularly good for a clone effect (where is Phantasmal Image when you need it) and is dead when your board is empty. I feel like there are a lot of good targets for it in the meta, and it can potentially allow decks to sort of "double up" (not really but sort of) on cards they can usually only run a limited supply of. Pretender may not exactly be copy 2-3 of Baneslayer Angel for example, but in a good number of cases it functions similarly enough to function as such. It still represents the potential to get something big out under cost as well. Paying 5 mana for a Pelakka Wurm for example isn't the most terrible thing in the world.

Sorry, went a bit off topic.

I think it may be worth messing around with them a little at least. You have a decent number of targets with ETB effects that work well to clone, and the deck has access to Undying Evil as well, which can actually work pretty well with Pretender (allowing you to upgrade what it is cloning for rather than bouncing it and recasting for while still often triggering an ETB effect and potentially eating an opponents creature in the process, oh, and the +1/+1 counter).

I'm going to keep testing the Mind Rots just because I want them to work. They have been pretty good in the small sample size I've played so far, but they could prove a liability in the long run.

I do think playing Tormentors would be good in this deck based on the experience I've had with it so far.

For those of you not wanting to play Mind Rots at all (which is fair), then I would suggest trying this out:



I will be playing two Mind Rots in place of the Agents, but I'll consider if Agent would be better whenever I draw it.

Mercurial Pretender for president!




elk

Hakeem, I might put in a negate or two to have an out to a topdecked Anger.

Lol. I havent missed Agents much after slotting in Tormentors. Lots to test! Great discussion.

I've been playing against Danno and I need some removal. Shadowborn is back in, Agent is unreliable, and Mind Rot is bad.