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 Post subject: Re: Flavor
PostPosted: Mon Jun 30, 2014 3:02 pm 
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I just did a quick count. We have a total of SIX enchantment creatures, 4 white and 2 black. 3 black if you include Death World's lhurgoyf.
The 4 white ones can be tied to Elori no problem. The black ones, not too much (one's even a demon).

Oblation seems to be somewhat religiously tied, though I know there's at least one green creature with it.
They don't necessarily seem to be tied to enchantment creatures. However, bringer (the mechanic) seems to be tied to enchantment creatures for the most part (I still think bringer should be unkeyworded).

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Last edited by storyteller on Mon Jun 30, 2014 3:24 pm, edited 3 times in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Flavor
PostPosted: Mon Jun 30, 2014 3:22 pm 
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Wow what I thought we had like maybe two so far. o_o

Ok clearly I need to go bone up on my selected cards because I missed those, and I can't remember what Bringer does (hm, at the very least it should probably have a different name because that seems a little too close to the Bringer creature type from 5th Dawn).


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 Post subject: Re: Flavor
PostPosted: Mon Jun 30, 2014 3:26 pm 
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[cardtype]bringer (When ~ enters the battlefield {or was it cast?}, you may cast a [cardtype] card with cmc less than ~'s cmc without paying its mana cost).
Shows up on like two? three? creatures right now.
Oh, I remember, I think there was a red one not tied to Enchantment Creatures.

On the scorched trail -
Gruff in desert. Monsters in desert. Monsters eats Gruff. Gruff runs. Gruff finds trail. Trail no monsters. Gruff follow trail...

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 Post subject: Re: Flavor
PostPosted: Mon Jun 30, 2014 3:39 pm 
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Enchantment creatures are, from what I know/want, transcending humans that are partially or fully replacing their existance through religious beliefs. See it as becoming one with Elori, for better or worse.

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 Post subject: Re: Flavor
PostPosted: Mon Jun 30, 2014 4:09 pm 
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On the scorched trail -
Gruff in desert. Monsters in desert. Monsters eats Gruff. Gruff runs. Gruff finds trail. Trail no monsters. Gruff follow trail...

Heheheh. Heheheheheheheh. Heheheheheheheheh.

So Bringer is basically the Rebel/Mercenary mechanic but with card types. Cool. Not hugely flavorful but also not very difficult to flavor.

@Mown:

Makes sense. For black, we've got this flavor text so far:

Quote:
Those acolytes who channeled Elori's light and grace were rewarded. Those who instead channeled Elori's deceit and judgement were shamed and outcast.


which is kind of interesting because it implies a relationship between the sun and black mana. Sort of a two sides of the same coin kinda deal maybe? Eater of Dreams has no flavor text and I doubt we have to remain beholden to the name on the card right now... And of course there's the Lhurgoyf enchantment. Hmm...


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 Post subject: Re: Flavor
PostPosted: Mon Jun 30, 2014 5:53 pm 
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Should Lightbearer/Shamebearer be pure Clerics?

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 Post subject: Re: Flavor
PostPosted: Mon Jun 30, 2014 6:25 pm 
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With no race type you mean?

That could be interesting...


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 Post subject: Re: Flavor
PostPosted: Mon Jun 30, 2014 11:59 pm 
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@ The Dragons: I see both of them as pretty solitary. Their motivation for stopping the plane was half establishing a comfortable living environment and half growing more powerful (Soaking up all that sunlight/coldness. I also thought about making them elemental* dragons to [play up this angle). I imagine they both spend 80% of their time sleeping.
Anjo is the less solitary of the two and actually sometimes enjoys the company of "lesser beings" so long as they are properly respectful. Xie has a cat-like temperment- wants to be alone, but loves attention as long as Xir company behaves itself.
Glac I don't have much of a handle on. I figure he would freeze anyone who woke Xie up. Hardcore introvert maybe?

@Eldrazi: I don't see the appeal. Eldrazi are cool, AnjoGlac is cool, but they're like peanut butter and vinegar**- best kept separate. Eldrazi are something you don't add to a plotline without careful consideration- they have a habit to take over everything.

@Timestop: I didn't get this at first but now I see it; the sun's in the same place all the time because the whole plane is stopped in time. Neat idea, but time shenanigans are also great at taking over plotlines. Plus, it raises messy questions of what's stopped and what's not and why.

@Keeper- It might help us reach an understanding if you outlined the relationship between the M:EM and established canon.
Also, what about Bolas, could he have been involved in the backstory of the plane?

*This couldn't be remedied with the lesser elder thing could it?
**which, yes, is delicious.

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 Post subject: Re: Flavor
PostPosted: Tue Jul 01, 2014 12:44 am 
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@Enchantment creatures: I thought the flavour was that they somehow ascended beyond their physical bodies. It's something that the cult of Elori practices. I'm not sure about naturally occurring enchantment creatures.

@Raceless Enchantment creatures: I actually thought we might have done this already. If not it should be seriously considered. They're not really human anymore post ascension.

@Religion: Yes, I was picking up on a bit of a religion vs academia vibe with the Illpyre/Frostwynd divide. Kind of plays into the cars type thing too with enchantments being quite mystical, and the academy/institute's artifice being quite a bit less so.

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 Post subject: Re: Flavor
PostPosted: Wed Jul 02, 2014 1:43 am 
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From the Anjomeddon design thread:

TPzombieW wrote:
Lack of other qualification is a qualification itself! From the point of a flavour consumer, how does the flavour so far appeal to you? What stands out?

My thoughts:

- The basic concept of a world divided between ice and fire is great. The name should probably reflect that better: "Starstill" brings to mind a celestial or astronomical theme rather than the theme of antipodes.

- The naming should be tightened up some. Right now, the names of locations and characters feel very disjointed, like they were cobbled together by a wide variety of designers (cough, cough). Compare this to WotC worlds which have well-researched linguistic roots, like Innistrad's Germanic naming or Ravnica's Eastern European inspiration. My own Solphos block has heavily Greek/Latin inspired naming because of the scientific theme. Consider doing something similar for Starstill?

- I also think the flavor isn't as resonant as it could be. Beyond "fire and ice land," there really isn't much to go on. Is the desert side more Egyptian, with jackals and tombs, or is it more American with cacti and mirages and rattlesnakes? Is the ice side more Tibetan with yetis and mountains and avalanches, or is it more Siberian with bears and witches and endless woods? Fallingman's Norse/mafia themes made his sets really distinctive, and I think my steampunk alchemy theme does the same for Solphos. Cultural hooks make your setting easier to understand. You can see me trying some of that in my "spooky things" posts, but a more unified creative effort could make the world more cohesive.

- I'm not getting a clear sense of society or technological level from the cards right now. This is part of the above problem, I guess. Without art, it makes it supremely difficult to get a feel of the world. Still, you can imply things through your naming and flavor text.

- The legendary dragons make great centerpieces. No complaints here.

- I don't know anything about the trade consortium or whatever it's called apart from the snippets of discussion we've had. It simply isn't coming through on the cards.

- After typing all these out, I realize that the biggest problem is simply that the set lacks a creative bible. Having a solid Planeswalker's Guide to fall back on would really make the set's flavor shine.

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 Post subject: Re: Flavor
PostPosted: Wed Jul 02, 2014 8:03 am 
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I'm with CKY here. I think we've got a solid plotline, we have a great way of translating flavor to mechanics, we've got an incredibly evocative and interesting endgame that nevertheless keeps the plane from being totally altered by the narrative (which would be Bad Shared World Storytelling), we've got a couple of characters (two dragons, Gruff--people seem to dig him--, and possibly Aloise if people dig her), we've got a few major political powers...

It's time to move beyond these huge wrenching big picture conversations and move onto creating a Planeswalker's Guide that can be more aggressively applied to the cards.

I also think we might want to make a list of the cards that have weak or obviously placeholdered flavor, or cards that lack flavor text, and start applying the Guide to those cards.

I think these are the big questions that need answering right now:
Who are the major players, faction-wise? (We already have some answers to this but I think we could use more)
What's the technological level? (Right now it feels like it's all over the map)
Who are our major characters? (See TP's post below for some possibilities)
What races are on this plane? (Races have been introduced organically but we need to talk about the big picture of color distribution for races on this plane)
How can we convey the narrative of the Moonrise on the cards?
Do we want any 'walkers that are native, or at least particular to this project, rather than M:EM characters?
What is the flavorful explanation of ALL the mechanics? (We've talked about a number of these but we lack a comprehensive list)

A lot of this, I think, is going to be an effort of compiling rather than creation--putting together in easily viewable form the ideas already discussed.

Honestly, I think that we should consider using the Wiki for creating the Guide. It would allow lots of people to edit the page, distributing the work rather than forcing one or two people to go through the thread compiling everything. In short, I second the illustrious and frankly quite attractive GobO Commodore Gruff's suggestion that the wiki be tapped as a resource!


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 Post subject: Re: Flavor
PostPosted: Wed Jul 02, 2014 8:04 am 
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Also here's this from the Anjomeddon design thread:
TPzombieW wrote:
@Anjomeddon:
I like to think that Anjo has Urabrask syndrome. He has a sentimental side. He sees his followers as pets of a sort. He's fond of them as sort of pets. Ooh that's a good human, you're getting an extra ration tonight! Except Anjo sees the majority of his pets as interchangeable and individually disposable. Unless you're a particularly impressive grand architect or warleader or something. If you're just an average warleader (and over the centuries he's had plenty) Anjo won't take any real personal interest in you. People who aren't his personal playthings are beneath his interest- unless their messing with his followers which are mine damn it and only I get to decide when they die!

@Anjo/Glac relationship
I see them as emotionally distant siblings (twins maybe?). They both detest the other's methods and believe their own way to be superior. They can get along from a distance but both know that if they actually spent a whole week in each other's company they would end up at each other's throats. It is in their mutual interest to avoid each other and preserve their relationship, such as it is.

Some flavour nuggets:
SteelBridge - The city of Steel Bridge was once known by another name, but centuries after the Stilling has become synonymous with it's distinguishing feature- the plane's first (and in light of a certain catastrophe) 100% metal-frame bridge. All the other bridges across the Big Gap have crumbled and rotted away long ago, leaving Steelbridge (the bridge) the only way across and turning Steelbridge (the town) into a bustling trade center and the biggest settlement in the area.
Steelbridge is a universal ceasefire zone because everyone from a hundred miles out can agree that the bridge's integrity must be maintained. Even conquering armies know that Steelbridge should only be taken by negotiatin and the town and bridge itself has gone more or less untouched by multiple empires.It is currently overtaken but untouched by the Faith of Elori.
This is also the farthest sunward that the robes of the Academy carry serious weight. Even within the range of influence of ludite zealots nobody can convince the Steelbridgers to turn against the only people who truly know how to maintain the bridge. This pisses of the cultists sooo much. Way more than the actual artificers ever did.
Maybe this is the base of the Trade Consortium? They're the ones who really run the place. Also makes sense since that's where the Academy would logically think to launch such an intiative.

Big Gap** - A massive canyon running more or less parallel to the terminator*. Across its entire length the only way to cross is at Steelbridge. The scholars of Frostwynd have a proper name for the canyon, but find that even they end up referring to it as Big Gap.

How would everyone feel about a black merchant protagonist?
Guess I'll leave the lich for next time.
I aslo need to look into the Aloise Hartley thing.
Also we need to get the Elori/Anjo thing sorted out. I figure Elori's Anjo's favouritest ever human who runs his proxy religion because Anjo is way too temperamental to actually manage of of these things.

* The line on a planet's surface dividing night and day. Also a word I really like.
** Deep Trench maybe? Long Gorge/Gap? I just want something descriptive and overly simple. A "Grand Canyon" that doesn't sound too derivative.


I really like the idea of a black protagonist, and I like the Steelbridge, although we might want to think about not making it steel depending on the actual technological level we're working with here. Magical metals work, too.


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 Post subject: Re: Flavor
PostPosted: Wed Jul 02, 2014 5:36 pm 
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Thanks for reposting my flavour post here. I thought I was posting it here originally and not in a card creation thread.
Using the wiki sounds good.

@Culture: I originally thought it would be cool if we didn't have any single culture that everything was based on to show that this was once a complete and diverse world that got cut down by the Starstill. Instead the set would draw from a wide variety of cultural backgrounds. I'm starting to think that was a mistake though. Depicting a chaotic patchwork mess of a world is just leading to a chaotic patchwork mess.
For a cultural inspiration we should probably draw from a region that has extreme temperature variation. Deserts are also a must. China? The Andes? Mongolia's taken by WOTC's next block and Jakkard's got the USA. Perhaps Taji/Uzbeki/Paki/Kazakhstan.

@Tech level: I was thinking Renaissance type level. Just throw in a dash of that signature MTG clockwork/steam artifice that's miles beyond anything in the real world. For an MTG reference, the plane was probably on the cusp of Ravnica-level tech and social intricacy. Post-Starstill, most of the plane has fallen back to medieval tech levels, with the odd bit of remaining schizo tech. In general the cold side has kept more of their technology than the hot side. This is mostly because artifacts last longer in Frostwynd.

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 Post subject: Re: Flavor
PostPosted: Wed Jul 02, 2014 6:48 pm 
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I actually do still like the idea of it being a bit of a patchwork! It doesn't have to be a direct one to one cultural relationship, particularly since we already have so much of the world set on the cards. It could be more like Ravnica--shades of particular cultures but largely its own thing.

I like Renaissance level tech. That feels right to me too.


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 Post subject: Re: Flavor
PostPosted: Thu Jul 03, 2014 9:01 am 
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If you want to convey the feeling of patchwork scavenged technology, you probably need a more apocalyptic feel on the cards. More wanderers, more salvagers, more random things left half-buried in the snow.

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 Post subject: Re: Flavor
PostPosted: Thu Jul 03, 2014 9:55 pm 
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Indeed. I think we need that Style Guide to help guide card creation. Maybe make a point of doing flavour-based criteria.

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 Post subject: Re: Flavor
PostPosted: Fri Jul 04, 2014 5:19 am 
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I haven't read most of the stuff around Starstill (Mainly because your information is really scattered. I had to ask Shazzeh for all the information I couldn't find, which was a lot.), so I don't know if this has been brought up before or not, but I'd like to go on the record and say that Glacinorak and Anjomeddon are the stupidest names ever. Those words just sound unpleasant.

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 Post subject: Re: Flavor
PostPosted: Fri Jul 04, 2014 5:25 am 
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Frankly, I haven't been keeping track of the flavor thread so pardon me if anything I say is out of place. I agree with CKY's comment about the frozen side having a more apocalyptic feel to it. I had this impression that the frozen side is a like a vast frozen wasteland with bits and parcels of civilization left all over the place (The things people leave behind as they tried to evict to warmer lands urgently when Starstill occured). An under-the-snow base/city with passages and stuff built out of buried cities would be pretty nice, I think it would tie in nicely with the renaissance level tech too. The surface of the frozen side is still but beneath it, a lot of work is on-going. The city is like a stove(?), with all the heat and steam. They also installed heaters on the "roof" which melts the surface snow, making way for launchpads exits from within. Like with Journeyer's Kite and Wingcrafters (ties in with the artifact affiliation me think). Entry back into the city by hidden passages and parachutes.

Urgh, I am liking the idea of an underground city for the frozen side more and more and I am not sure if this is even the place to talk about it >.>. Or if it has even been suggested for that matter.

Personally, I do like to see the religious bit within the set to have a touch of desperation. Like Elori was formed by a group of devotees who took to praying to the Sun for forgiveness that kind of thing. The type of desperation that bonds people together to seek survival under the increasingly harsher sun.


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 Post subject: Re: Flavor
PostPosted: Fri Jul 04, 2014 10:14 am 
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We desperately need to start a wiki page compiling things, but I do not have time to do it myself. I'm behind on getting the M:EM wiki up and running as it is. Someone else's gotta step up here.

@Silly:

Got alternate suggestions?

@Confused:

I dig it. Ha ha get it dig it like digging tunnels

But yeah no that's pretty great. There's been some mention of underground cities in Illpyre as well, and it might be a thing we want to explore on both ends of the planet. I don't think ALL cities should be underground but what if there was one in particular that went underground for survival? I'm thinking a sort of Naples-esque city with a waterfront that receded, leaving a wide beach at one end of the buried expanse of the city...

It's potentially an interesting counterpoint to Steelbridge, which would be above ground and maybe closer to Nakara, this is a little further back and a little more insular and weird. Possibly this could be at the space between mountains and sea, providing lots of access to both blue and red mana? Thus ice shapers that keep the frozen ceiling from caving in and firestarters keeping everything from freezing over, working together but only barely.

Once again I feel strongly the need for a comprehensive list of what colors get what spell types...

That's, what, three major locations in Frostwynd so far, yes? Steelbridge, this buried city, and the Academy, plus maybe a ruined academy or two, and Frostblight at the furthest edge of Frostwynd.


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 Post subject: Re: Flavor
PostPosted: Fri Jul 04, 2014 11:17 am 
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I have an nice image in my head when I read "Naples-esque city with a waterfront that receded, leaving a wide beach at one end of the buried expanse of the city" (I had to google Naples-esque though). I like the idea of a beach, adds more angles to the city rather than just hidden passages that leads people in and out of it or "launchpads" that supposingly tosses people with flying equipment straight out of the city and into the air for aerial operations and such (Hehe). Hmm, would the temperature for the city be warm enough for the citizens to walk around without wearing excessive cold-protection gear? The underground city idea came to me because an underground city feels warm to me, kinda like a contrast to the surface.

I am not up-to-date with the settings but how dominant is technology in Starstill? Or is the magical setting still more prevalent since you mentioned ice shapers and fire starters? I envisioned the city to have a big industrial core, with lots of factories and metalworks and stuff. Important facilities to break down the salvaged metal, workshops to fix and create artifacts. So, my question should be closer to "If given a problem, would the people come up with a magical means of solving it, or find a more mundane/technological-based answer?"

By the way, I was scanning through a page before talking about Glac's motives for Starstill or something like that. I still haven't figure out why he would want to cause Starstill but I thought it would be pretty cool(?) if Glac dug out his own heart to fuel the ever-ending winter on his side. We can even do an artifact card on it.


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