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Vote in "Nesting Dolls?"
Poll ended at Mon Feb 01, 2016 4:25 pm
Yea: 86%  86%  [ 6 ]
Nay: 0%  0%  [ 0 ]
Not As Is: 0%  0%  [ 0 ]
Abstain: 14%  14%  [ 1 ]
Total votes : 7
Total voters : 7
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 23, 2016 4:25 pm 
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Title: Nesting Dolls
Author: RavenoftheBlack
Status: Public

Changes from the original


Nesting Dolls


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PostPosted: Sun Jan 24, 2016 3:05 am 
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Amazing!


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PostPosted: Sun Jan 24, 2016 3:10 am 
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Amazing!

Thanks!


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PostPosted: Fri Jan 29, 2016 8:46 am 
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I really loved the philosophy in this one, and Raiker was delightfully evil as always. Honestly, this is just a good story all around...

All of which makes me really sad to have to vote Nay. Were I judging simply on how well-written it was and much I enjoyed the story, I would vote for it in a heartbeat. However, Raiker's ability here to brake the Fourth Wall makes me very uncomfortable. Archiving this story canonizes both the existence of universes outside of the Magic multiverse, and powerful mages potentially having the ability to peer into them. If such magic exists, I feel it would have very broad implications on the multiverse as a whole, and I don't know if that's a road we want the M:EM to go down.

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PostPosted: Fri Jan 29, 2016 10:49 am 
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Moonbeam wrote:
I really loved the philosophy in this one, and Raiker was delightfully evil as always. Honestly, this is just a good story all around...

All of which makes me really sad to have to vote Nay. Were I judging simply on how well-written it was and much I enjoyed the story, I would vote for it in a heartbeat. However, Raiker's ability here to brake the Fourth Wall makes me very uncomfortable. Archiving this story canonizes both the existence of universes outside of the Magic multiverse, and powerful mages potentially having the ability to peer into them. If such magic exists, I feel it would have very broad implications on the multiverse as a whole, and I don't know if that's a road we want the M:EM to go down.

Hey, Moonbeam! I'm really glad to see you around here again, and I hope that continues!

Now, as to your specific criticism, I want to say that I anticipated someone making it, and frankly, I'm glad someone did. You are right in that this story has certain implications within the M:EM (although ironically, I think the other Raiker story up for vote, "Aversion," actually has more!). However, I will say that I wrote this piece very carefully to avoid the precise implication you are talking about. For instance, while this piece can certainly be read as "breaking the fourth wall," it technically doesn't. Raiker never addressed the audience, he doesn't look at the camera and wink, nor does he give any sort of name or identifier to the figure in the portal. I agree that the "glowing page" can certainly be read as a computer or device screen, but it need not be. It could very easily be an illuminated magical tome of some sort.

Raiker's revelation her does imply that there is something "beyond" the world in which he operates, but of course, we already knew that. He's a planeswalker. There are many worlds beyond the plane of Stena, and in the infinite (lack of) confines in the great wide Multiverse, surely there must be some beings capable of peering through the veil. Similarly, Raiker could very well be describing a god of Stena watching Analeta, and then an even greater god (perhaps a god's god?) watch that figure. I very much tried to write this story in a manner that could be interpreted in multiple ways, and certainly one in which the "fourth wall" (and the "fifth wall," as it were) could remain intact.

Now, having said all that, obviously if you feel it is still too problematic, by all means, vote Nay, and the same goes for everyone else. I knew when I was writing it and when I put it up for vote that this may wind up the prevailing feeling about this story, and that's perfectly fine. Raiker has plenty of other stories. But this one does tie into the metaphysical issues Raiker has, which he first revealed in "Poetic License," so this sort of thing is, I feel, on theme with Raiker.

But never feel bad about voting Nay on a story you feel does not belong in the Archive. Ultimately, I believe the integrity of the Archive and the project is considerably more important than any individual story.


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PostPosted: Sat Jan 30, 2016 11:39 pm 
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I was a big fan of this piece to begin with, and the language changes do help my tiny brain to keep the different dolls straight (thanks, Raven!), so I'm a happy "yea" for this story.

I won't speak for anyone else, obviously, but the peek through the fourth wall just doesn't seem to trouble me. I don't think I could articulate a better-reasoned rationale for or against it than either Moonbeam or Raven, so I won't try. My take is just that it seems to fit -- it feels like it belongs in the story, like it ought to be there. And I'm contented to let it be the way that it wants to be.

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PostPosted: Sun Jan 31, 2016 9:33 am 
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Hey, Moonbeam! I'm really glad to see you around here again, and I hope that continues!


Thanks! I plan on sticking around for a while this time.

Quote:
You are right in that this story has certain implications within the M:EM (although ironically, I think the other Raiker story up for vote, "Aversion," actually has more!).


I'm curious, would this be Raiker's mysterious Duchess-sense, or is it something else that I missed?

Quote:
Raiker's revelation her does imply that there is something "beyond" the world in which he operates, but of course, we already knew that. He's a planeswalker. There are many worlds beyond the plane of Stena, and in the infinite (lack of) confines in the great wide Multiverse, surely there must be some beings capable of peering through the veil. Similarly, Raiker could very well be describing a god of Stena watching Analeta, and then an even greater god (perhaps a god's god?) watch that figure. I very much tried to write this story in a manner that could be interpreted in multiple ways, and certainly one in which the "fourth wall" (and the "fifth wall," as it were) could remain intact.


Speaking as an atheist, a Plane with an infinite regress of gods who all believe that they themselves have no creator does seem very appealing... But I also think the author's intent should matter, even if it could technically be interpreted other ways.

That said, I have considered it further, and I don't actually have as much of an issue with Raiker breaking the fourth wall as I did before.

My primary concern, which I was too tired to articulate at the time, was the probability of other characters finding this same knowledge as Raiker. Zhiran, for example, would almost certainly come across it at some point while cataloging various magics. How would this knowledge affect his character? What about other characters who are more knowledgable than Raiker?

Having thought about this more (probably for far longer than is healthy), I realized that if expanded on further, it could be done in such a way that leaves a layer of ambiguity. While Raiker certainly believes that the outer world is real, I imagine more sane individuals would simply discount the spell he uses as either a trick, or something that simply shows distant locations in the multiverse. Without a way to further test that the worlds really do exist outside the multiverse, no rational person who learned this spell would be capable of verifying what it does for sure. And, I actually think the idea that Raiker's ideology is at least in part based on this irrational idea that his world is another world's fiction adds an interesting layer to his character. There are still a lot of ways this can be problematic later, but I no longer believe it is now, and I trust that you know what you're doing.

So I'm changing my vote to a yea.

Quote:
But never feel bad about voting Nay on a story you feel does not belong in the Archive. Ultimately, I believe the integrity of the Archive and the project is considerably more important than any individual story.


To be honest, a large part of it was just guilt over this being one of my first votes since being back after so long of not participating in the project. (And, as I said, this really is an amazing story.)

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https://www.fanfiction.net/s/10366646/1 ... od-and-Oil


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