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War!
Poll ended at Mon Oct 05, 2015 1:09 pm
War! 67%  67%  [ 4 ]
Peace! 0%  0%  [ 0 ]
Diplomatic Negotiations With Armed Conflict As An Option! 0%  0%  [ 0 ]
What? 33%  33%  [ 2 ]
Total votes : 6
Total voters : 6
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 27, 2015 12:33 pm 
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The Siege of the Ringpeaks
by razorborne
Status: Private (until Ossia is complete)

The Siege of the Ringpeaks, by razorborne

word count: 1525

:duel:

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PostPosted: Sun Sep 27, 2015 1:44 pm 
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WAR

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Game design: Pokémon Tales | Fleets of Ossia: War Machines | Hunter Killer | Red Jackie's Run


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PostPosted: Mon Sep 28, 2015 9:01 pm 
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Question: is there more to this story right now? Because as it is, it feels truncated and obfuscated, like the middle chapter of a much longer story. I'd probably even just accept a portion of the Ossia Dossier, if that's done (I noticed you're posting bits of it).

For instance, you only once specify that these are centaurs, and I'm not even sure if the group at the Ringpeaks are centaurs, though it seems implied that they are. There's a lot of names brandied about as well without any explanation -- which isn't necessarily a bad thing, since it makes the world feel organic, but I feel you might be skirting the upper limit of unexplained names for the size of story you have here.

I'll wait for your response, but at the moment I'm leaning toward a NAI vote on the stipulation that further information about this war and these people be available. I think it's wonderfully written, though it doesn't feel like its own entity.


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PostPosted: Mon Sep 28, 2015 10:25 pm 
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Question: is there more to this story right now? Because as it is, it feels truncated and obfuscated, like the middle chapter of a much longer story. I'd probably even just accept a portion of the Ossia Dossier, if that's done (I noticed you're posting bits of it).

For instance, you only once specify that these are centaurs, and I'm not even sure if the group at the Ringpeaks are centaurs, though it seems implied that they are. There's a lot of names brandied about as well without any explanation -- which isn't necessarily a bad thing, since it makes the world feel organic, but I feel you might be skirting the upper limit of unexplained names for the size of story you have here.

I'll wait for your response, but at the moment I'm leaning toward a NAI vote on the stipulation that further information about this war and these people be available. I think it's wonderfully written, though it doesn't feel like its own entity.

almost all the names here will be included in the dossier. the only ones that aren't known characters or locations outside the story are Tekama Nightgrass, who has one line, and Vatakke, who I think is pretty well-defined from context. all the rest will be answered in the dossier or, if you're impatient, in the links in my sig. (if you click the Fleets of Ossia link, that'll take you to the archives for the set. then the Kemil, Isle of Mares link will take you to an overview of Kemil. all the stuff I'm putting in the dossier is already in those threads, I'm just compiling and polishing them.)

so yes, like the others, this is the middle chapter of a larger story. each of these is a snapshot of events that happened between Fleets of Ossia, the first set of the block, and Wavebreak, the second. I left the exposition to a minimum on these for length and also organicness (organicity?) but my general goal with these has been to include a bunch of names and stuff but not make enjoying the story contingent on it. they're also generally vignette-y, in that they aren't really whole stories, just snapshots of moments. take Kiber's Reflection, for instance. it shows nothing of his fall from power, and nothing of what he does with his new weapon at the end, it's just a moment in his life. a pivotal one, but not a complete story. A Dying Wish, similarly, is all setting up further developments that it doesn't even bother to fully spell out. All Aboard! (which hasn't gone to vote yet) is more of a complete story, but even it has a lot going on on both sides. I can't really show what happens from the end of this story because it leaves off about where Wavebreak picks up, and what happens after that hasn't been shown yet.

:duel:

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Last edited by razorborne on Mon Sep 28, 2015 10:36 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Mon Sep 28, 2015 10:33 pm 
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I might do that, then. Because as I say, I feel this is a bit light to vote on its own. I know you're building up to getting all of Ossia in the Archives, so checking what will be in the future might sway me toward a more definite Yea.

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PostPosted: Mon Sep 28, 2015 10:38 pm 
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I might do that, then. Because as I say, I feel this is a bit light to vote on its own. I know you're building up to getting all of Ossia in the Archives, so checking what will be in the future might sway me toward a more definite Yea.

I'm working on the Telimar entry to the dossier right now, but I'll try to get to the Kemil one next.

:duel:

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PostPosted: Mon Sep 28, 2015 10:53 pm 
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I agree to an extent with Luna--I was sort of surprised when this one ended, which for whatever reason hasn't happened with your other pieces.

One thing I do want to definitely flag is the titles of each section. I just don't think they're necessary for 500 word long passages of a 1500 word piece--a simple dividing line would do that work I'd say. I think they signal that this is going to be a more complex work with several parts? Does that make sense or is that kind of a nonsensical thing to critique?

I also feel like there's something odd about the structure here... Like, this is sort of either the duality of the Herded (?) and the Herdless, or it's between the three groups--Herdless, those who want to wipe them out, and those who don't care either way because they've got other people to murder elsewhere. The scope of the story is broad enough as to almost encompass all these groups, but lingers on Kogoth and Stollick...

It's weird because while I was reading I found this extremely engaging, and I honestly didn't have a hard time picking up the different names and factions, and I even feel like this is some of your best writing for the project so far! But upon reflection I have to agree with Luna that it feels like there's some pieces that need to be bolted in for this to really work structurally, particularly given what I said in the thread on All Aboard! about the way the other stories in this series have really all worked on their own as encapsulated moments--and, I'd argue, they do work as complete story beats at least. I don't think this necessarily needs an ending... but maybe it needs more perspective?

I'm absolutely open to contradiction here though.


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PostPosted: Mon Sep 28, 2015 11:04 pm 
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One thing I do want to definitely flag is the titles of each section. I just don't think they're necessary for 500 word long passages of a 1500 word piece--a simple dividing line would do that work I'd say. I think they signal that this is going to be a more complex work with several parts? Does that make sense or is that kind of a nonsensical thing to critique?
I think I get what you're saying. I just needed a way to mark changes in scene and it seemed like the best way. I did the same thing on A Dying Wish so I didn't really think much of it here.

I also feel like there's something odd about the structure here... Like, this is sort of either the duality of the Herded (?) and the Herdless, or it's between the three groups--Herdless, those who want to wipe them out, and those who don't care either way because they've got other people to murder elsewhere. The scope of the story is broad enough as to almost encompass all these groups, but lingers on Kogoth and Stollick...
yeah, it's more about the Temple vs. the Herdless, but I couldn't really do it without involving Saurim. maybe that clutters things? but then without that the juxtaposition between Saurim and Stollik isn't there, and I think that's valuable even if it's subtle.

It's weird because while I was reading I found this extremely engaging, and I honestly didn't have a hard time picking up the different names and factions, and I even feel like this is some of your best writing for the project so far! But upon reflection I have to agree with Luna that it feels like there's some pieces that need to be bolted in for this to really work structurally, particularly given what I said in the thread on All Aboard! about the way the other stories in this series have really all worked on their own as encapsulated moments--and, I'd argue, they do work as complete story beats at least. I don't think this necessarily needs an ending... but maybe it needs more perspective?
I guess I'm just having a hard time seeing how this is a less complete story than Kiber's Reflection. I'm not saying it's not, and I'm certainly not an unbiased observer, but I'm not really seeing the distinction. could you clarify what you mean by perspective here?

:duel:

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PostPosted: Tue Sep 29, 2015 12:02 am 
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I agree to an extent with Luna--I was sort of surprised when this one ended, which for whatever reason hasn't happened with your other pieces.

One thing I do want to definitely flag is the titles of each section. I just don't think they're necessary for 500 word long passages of a 1500 word piece--a simple dividing line would do that work I'd say. I think they signal that this is going to be a more complex work with several parts? Does that make sense or is that kind of a nonsensical thing to critique?

I took the section titles to be location markers. Like "meanwhile, at the Ringpeaks" kind of feel. I didn't take too much notice of them, but I doubt it would feel a loss if they were removed, either.

Quote:
It's weird because while I was reading I found this extremely engaging, and I honestly didn't have a hard time picking up the different names and factions, and I even feel like this is some of your best writing for the project so far! But upon reflection I have to agree with Luna that it feels like there's some pieces that need to be bolted in for this to really work structurally, particularly given what I said in the thread on All Aboard! about the way the other stories in this series have really all worked on their own as encapsulated moments--and, I'd argue, they do work as complete story beats at least. I don't think this necessarily needs an ending... but maybe it needs more perspective?

I'm absolutely open to contradiction here though.

No that's basically that's basically what I think. I'm open to having others do the writing for the larger story being hinted at here, but I'd like to have a bit of perspective which may well just come from the dossier.

--------

razorborne wrote:
I guess I'm just having a hard time seeing how this is a less complete story than Kiber's Reflection. I'm not saying it's not, and I'm certainly not an unbiased observer, but I'm not really seeing the distinction. could you clarify what you mean by perspective here?

:duel:

I think there's a lot more implied information in Kiber's Reflection than there is here. We know that there's three parties in the former: Kiber the Stout, Whats-her-name the Shadowblade fae who overthrew him, and the Pixie Queen of the Canopy.

In Kiber's Reflection we're given enough of the picture to understand what's going on: a Leprechaun, a Faerie, and a Pixie walk into a bar and try to come out on top. Here, we're given the information that there's been a war for 20 years going on this isle among possibly three but possibly more groups which may or may not all be centaurs which all have their own cultural beliefs of nobility which are not defined to the reader and something big was maybe decided and possibly a group of maybe centaurs with an unknown size is going to be wiped out by a larger group of maybe centaurs from plausibly only one cultural group. That about sum it up?


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PostPosted: Tue Sep 29, 2015 12:33 am 
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In Kiber's Reflection we're given enough of the picture to understand what's going on: a Leprechaun, a Faerie, and a Pixie walk into a bar and try to come out on top. Here, we're given the information that there's been a war for 20 years going on this isle among possibly three but possibly more groups which may or may not all be centaurs which all have their own cultural beliefs of nobility which are not defined to the reader and something big was maybe decided and possibly a group of maybe centaurs with an unknown size is going to be wiped out by a larger group of maybe centaurs from plausibly only one cultural group. That about sum it up?

I've sort of been assuming that the greater context these stories exist in (snapshots of individual Isles) would make it clear that all the characters involved are the same species unless otherwise mentioned, so yes, they're all Centaurs. the decades thing is a reference to the greater Ossia war: the line is "We’ve been at war for decades, with the Herdless behind us the whole time.” which I think implies that that war isn't with the Herdless, but maybe not clearly enough? on the nobility thing, I think you're reading too much into it. they're one culture, but cultural leaders aren't a monolith. Kogoth is their spiritual leader, Saurim is their military leader, they're going to look at things differently. Stollik is a revolutionary, but her role and her outlook are still defined by the culture around her.

that said, I'm not really sure how to clarify any of that. it's hard to put myself into the perspective of someone who has never encountered Kemil before because I've worked so long on it, but everything I've mentioned above seems pretty well-conveyed to me so I don't really know where fixes could be made. are there any specific lines you feel are misleading?

:duel:

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PostPosted: Tue Sep 29, 2015 11:56 pm 
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razorborne wrote:
In Kiber's Reflection we're given enough of the picture to understand what's going on: a Leprechaun, a Faerie, and a Pixie walk into a bar and try to come out on top. Here, we're given the information that there's been a war for 20 years going on this isle among possibly three but possibly more groups which may or may not all be centaurs which all have their own cultural beliefs of nobility which are not defined to the reader and something big was maybe decided and possibly a group of maybe centaurs with an unknown size is going to be wiped out by a larger group of maybe centaurs from plausibly only one cultural group. That about sum it up?

I've sort of been assuming that the greater context these stories exist in (snapshots of individual Isles) would make it clear that all the characters involved are the same species unless otherwise mentioned, so yes, they're all Centaurs. the decades thing is a reference to the greater Ossia war: the line is "We’ve been at war for decades, with the Herdless behind us the whole time.” which I think implies that that war isn't with the Herdless, but maybe not clearly enough? on the nobility thing, I think you're reading too much into it. they're one culture, but cultural leaders aren't a monolith. Kogoth is their spiritual leader, Saurim is their military leader, they're going to look at things differently. Stollik is a revolutionary, but her role and her outlook are still defined by the culture around her.

that said, I'm not really sure how to clarify any of that. it's hard to put myself into the perspective of someone who has never encountered Kemil before because I've worked so long on it, but everything I've mentioned above seems pretty well-conveyed to me so I don't really know where fixes could be made. are there any specific lines you feel are misleading?

:duel:

I don't know where I pulled the twenty years from, if the line says "decades", but that's not too big an issue.

I have a small pet peeve about stories that make the assumption of "x race unless otherwise specified", and I as a reader have no reason to assume that the Herdless are all centaurs rather than, for instance, other races without herds. There is nothing making it clear in this piece that the entire island would be solely centaurs, ant it would be easy to think that the centaurs of this island hold an attitude of superiority over other races that live on the island.

Also, I am 90% sure that it is never specified that Kogoth is their spiritual leader and Saurim is their military leader, and that is not something I picked up on at all. Stollik's role is pretty self-evident in the context of the story, but I got more of a feel for their character based off of the interactions they had.

Again, if this were, say, a single chapter in a larger saga of... let's say 10, then I'd likely be much more lenient because there could be exposition much earlier in order to set up these events more clearly.


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PostPosted: Wed Sep 30, 2015 12:24 am 
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I don't know where I pulled the twenty years from, if the line says "decades", but that's not too big an issue.
my point was that I think the line pretty clearly implies that that war wasn't with the Herdless, since it says the Herdless were behind them, which is not generally where one positions one's adversaries.

I have a small pet peeve about stories that make the assumption of "x race unless otherwise specified", and I as a reader have no reason to assume that the Herdless are all centaurs rather than, for instance, other races without herds. There is nothing making it clear in this piece that the entire island would be solely centaurs, ant it would be easy to think that the centaurs of this island hold an attitude of superiority over other races that live on the island.
so, there is the line "“They are no longer Centaurs! They gave up the right to that name when they turned their back on their people!" which I think implies pretty heavily that they were Centaurs, and still probably are, biologically. it's not super emphasized because I think it's implied, but it is stated. there's also the bit where Kogoth tells Stollik she betrayed her people, which while not explicit does imply that Kogoth is Stollik's people.

Also, I am 90% sure that it is never specified that Kogoth is their spiritual leader and Saurim is their military leader, and that is not something I picked up on at all. Stollik's role is pretty self-evident in the context of the story, but I got more of a feel for their character based off of the interactions they had.
well, Kogoth's and Saurim's exact roles in society aren't all that important, my point was that it's not surprising that different people, especially cultural leaders, would be non-monolithic in their views. Kogoth and Saurim value different things because they're different people, not because they're from completely different cultures.

:duel:

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PostPosted: Wed Sep 30, 2015 8:49 am 
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I didn't have any problems following this story once the word centaur was mentioned. I agree with Razor that that line (“They are no longer Centaurs! They gave up the right to that name when they turned their back on their people!") carries enough weight to imply that all parties involved are centaurs. I was slightly confused up until that point, but never after.

Also, I wanted to point out my favorite moment in the story:
Quote:
“They’ll bleed, but we’ll be dead.”

Stollik nodded and turned to look out over the plains. “Indeed. Make peace with that, Vatakke.”


That line actually sent a shiver down my spine.

I'll be voting Yea.

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PostPosted: Wed Sep 30, 2015 11:14 am 
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so after some sleep and some contemplation, I think I'm better able to put words to what I've been trying to say here. so let's give it a try.

these stories have two separate goals. the first is to serve as an exploration of the world of Ossia and its characters. they let me learn my characters' voices, and show how events unfold in the various cultures across Ossia. they explore the differences between Epala's schemes and plots, Kemil's brutal warmongering, and Dragonroost's swashbucklin' freedom. but in order to appreciate that, further background on Ossia is needed. all that information is available with some digging, and YMtC-folk like CKY and I may already be familiar with it, but it's a prerequisite to getting that. (this is why I'm working on the dossier. but the composing stuff is so much more fun and it's where my attention keeps going when I have the time.)

the second goal is just to tell a good story. in this case, it's a story of xenophobia and survival in the face of religious persecution. and that requires basically no background. you don't need to know Kogoth and Saurim's exact roles in society, you don't need to know prior relationships between the Herdless and the rest of the Centaurs, heck you don't need to know that the Herdless are Centaurs. that's not important to the point. you just need to know that Kogoth wants the Herdless dead, and that there's some amount of support for that in the broader society, all of which is spelled out in the first couple paragraphs.

I think what's happening is you're trying to judge the former by the criteria of the latter. you're expecting it to teach you all about Kemil, but it isn't supposed to. it'll tell you some things about it, but you'll get those things a lot easier if you already have the background you need. like how A Dying Wish is the story of an old dude struggling with their mortality and their fading dreams, but if you know the Ossia storyline it's also much, much more.

:duel:

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PostPosted: Thu Oct 01, 2015 2:00 am 
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I have to make these puns before I fall asleep. I'll be back later with a proper response and probably a vote.

Quote:
Kemil, their island home, is the flattest of the Isles, with great open expanses and a long shoreline.

With a love of war and a long shoreline, do they have a mare-itime tradition?

Quote:
the Centaurs of Kemil are a matriarchal society: each herd is led by its strongest mare.

Does that make it a mare-itocracy?


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PostPosted: Thu Oct 01, 2015 2:16 am 
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I have to make these puns before I fall asleep. I'll be back later with a proper response and probably a vote.

Quote:
Kemil, their island home, is the flattest of the Isles, with great open expanses and a long shoreline.

With a love of war and a long shoreline, do they have a mare-itime tradition?

Quote:
the Centaurs of Kemil are a matriarchal society: each herd is led by its strongest mare.

Does that make it a mare-itocracy?

Quit horsing around, Luna.

:D


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PostPosted: Thu Oct 01, 2015 10:59 am 
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I have to make these puns before I fall asleep. I'll be back later with a proper response and probably a vote.

Quote:
Kemil, their island home, is the flattest of the Isles, with great open expanses and a long shoreline.

With a love of war and a long shoreline, do they have a mare-itime tradition?

Quote:
the Centaurs of Kemil are a matriarchal society: each herd is led by its strongest mare.

Does that make it a mare-itocracy?

Quit horsing around, Luna.

:D

If you want me to, you're going to have to pony up something of your own. (I'm sorry razor.)

(No I'm not.)


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PostPosted: Thu Oct 01, 2015 12:49 pm 
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I have to make these puns before I fall asleep. I'll be back later with a proper response and probably a vote.


With a love of war and a long shoreline, do they have a mare-itime tradition?


Does that make it a mare-itocracy?

Quit horsing around, Luna.

:D

If you want me to, you're going to have to pony up something of your own. (I'm sorry razor.)

(No I'm not.)
it's ok I'm voting neigh

:duel:

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PostPosted: Thu Oct 01, 2015 6:54 pm 
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razorborne wrote:
Quit horsing around, Luna.

:D

If you want me to, you're going to have to pony up something of your own. (I'm sorry razor.)

(No I'm not.)
it's ok I'm voting neigh

:duel:

Oh, get off your high horse. You can't rein us in.


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PostPosted: Fri Oct 02, 2015 8:50 pm 
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War? Uh. What is it good for?

Absolutely nothing.

Except for voting "Yea" on this story.

Which is what I'm doing.

So, War!


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