I won a boat load of games with my Phantom Nantuko Armadillo Cloak deck.

That doesn't make the deck good.

Heck, I've won games with vanilla 2/2 bears.dec. That doesn't suddenly make 2/2 bears a great deck.

They may be old time players who haven't seen it in a while and still think Mana burn is valid.

When I really started playing Magic(I had 2 original decks in a drawer for a year and a half before starting it. I picked them up as a curiosity while comic book shopping) Banding was around. The mechanic was dismissed due to being hard for players to understand.(I looked it up and yes, this was the reason it was taken out). I got married for 11 years and left Magic by the wayside. I was disappointed in no banding as I really liked the mechanic.

You couldn't go by the small rulebook that came in those packs. Most people, myself included, tend to plunge in and try to figure it out by themselves. Now we have DoTP and it can do a great job as an introductory course PLUS give you the skills to move into the rest. This is where we come in.

New players breathe new life into a game. If they encounter abuse for their deck size, choice of card or whatever, they'll feel that this isn't a community they want to be a part of. They're PEOPLE, not robots on that other end and they will learn as they go along without raging at them. Make a friendly suggestion and not call them an idiot for playing..let's say ...Voice of the Provinces. I see this kind of abuse constantly at these players from what I called "math nazis". I'm sorry if you guys took offense, but really the only way to take offense at such a term is if it actually applies to you. If it doesn't apply to you, it doesn't bother you one bit, does it?

Point is, be nice to new players and welcome into the community. If not for the game, do it for YOURSELF. What do I mean? I'll use math:

New Players=more content+more interest= more options for you.

"I see this kind of abuse constantly at these players from what I called "math nazis". I'm sorry if you guys took offense, but really the only way to take offense at such a term is if it actually applies to you. If it doesn't apply to you, it doesn't bother you one bit, does it?"

You do realize how utterly hopeless you sound here, right? What if you swapped Nazis for a different N word? Do I need to be that particular shade to qualify for offensiveness benefits?

Who is actually abusing new people around here anyways? If someone asks me what I think about Voice of the Provinces and I say "that card is terrible", is that abuse? When that person fires back that I need to "expand my mind" into the world of "alternative thinking" and I tell them "not really bruh, the card is over-costed for what it does, a.k.a. turrible" is THAT abuse? Comparing hard math/numbers to your claims of "just try it, really, it works" is abuse?

Seriously dude.

Did the "other N" word oppress people and forbid other ideologies? No, and as a black man, I take offense at you comparing my race to Nazis even as some misguided point.. What should I expect from someone using Colonel Sanders as an avatar but someone who ties a race with one of the most murderous regimes in history?

Take your racist ass somewhere else.

Did the "other N" word oppress people and forbid other ideologies? No, and as a black man, I take offense at you comparing my race to Nazis even as some misguided point.. What should I expect from someone using Colonel Sanders as an avatar but someone who ties a race with one of the most murderous regimes in history?

Take your racist ass somewhere else.

Edit: Yes suh! I'll shine dos' boots for ya, massah! Cans I has some fried chicken? Please don' whip me for dis here double post! I bes good from now on.

Whoooooooooo boy. You're missing the point here buddy. But it is humorous to see so much indignation from someone who tosses the term "Nazi" around like it ain't no thang.

Use your vehicle of salvation, my brothers, go buy a gun.
And go give your gun to Jesus and say "Jesus...
You go kill the deciples of Satan and you kill the nazis, Jesus."
Gimme an amen. Amen. Gimme a hallelujah, brother. Hallelujah.
Feel the pain of sweet Jesus. Gimme another amen. Amen. Gimme another. Amen.
You've got to kill the noise.
You've got to kill the pollution of Satan, brother, gimme a hallelujah.

- Fred Durst

Shadow: Seriously; you've made multiple threads and dozens of posts treating people who prefer sixty card decks as some kind of dangerous cultists because you happen to disagree with what you call their beliefs. It's not a belief, it's maths, statistics, and probability. You can choose to ignore that those things exist. You can run more cards despite the impact they have on your effectiveness, and no one has a right to tell you that you can't. That's your call.

You have a belief. You believe you have more fun playing with more cards. That's fine. They have a science they are adhering to. They adhere to the science that "minimum number of cards means you are more likely to draw your best ones consistently." Which actually holds double true for DotP decks where you may not have the option of running four copies of the cards you want like you would in real Magic.

You are not wrong or bad for wanting to use more cards. However, neither are they wrong in that they understand the maths involved and choose to stick with what probability says is most consistent. They're not against free thinking, or whatever. The sixty-five you run might not include the sixty they run, and that's personal preference. Sure, over a long enough timeline and in enough situations, some cards are going to be consistently more useful than others. Torch Fiend is generally better than Shatter, but if you need that Instant speed, Shatter comes out ahead. No one would be wrong for running either card.

Relax.

You're comparing people who use math correctly to a race that slaughtered hundreds of thousands of people at least twice daily, then trying to pull the race card? Go pull a dictionary out of your ideology and look up the word hypocrisy. I'm sure you'll find it familiar.

Shadow, this is unbelievably inappropriate, and your response completely misses the point. No one was comparing Nazis to black people, he was simply saying that both words are offensive. By calling someone a nazi, you are inadvertently implying that their behavior is on par with the systematic extermination of millions of Jews, which is pretty insulting to the Jewish people, when you consider what we are talking about.

Also, as has been discussed previously (and this is directed at everyone,) your personal race, creed, religion, gender, sexual orientation, or anything else has no bearing whatsoever on what is and isn't considered appropriate.

And finally, I'd like to remind everyone that if you have an issue with a post, please report it, and keep discussion in the thread on topic and respectful, or you run the risk of being moderated yourself. The moderation team appreciates that some people want to resolve issues on their own, but when it comes to violations, let the mods handle it so that we can prevent things from snowballing past the point of no return. Let's keep this thread civil, or it will be closed, and warnings may be issued.

It is nice to see admins who are intelligent and really seem to care. I'm not use to this at all.

I have always been wondering something. Why is 70 the cut off? Why not 65 or 80 or anything else?

I think it actually used to be over 70 and then he was convinced down to 70.
I could be wrong, memories of the old forum are gradually disappearing...

No, it was always 70. Any higher is delving into pure luck.

Why? What is it about 75 cards that is so bad? Why is 70 the cutoff? I don't want to offend you or anything, but everytime I read your posts on this this seems to go unstated or get glossed over, and it actually confuses me. Since this thread seems like it isn't going to die anytime soon (it probably should honestly), I can't help but ask "What is wrong with 72 card decks?"

Well then, I apologize for the confusion.

The results came from playtesting constantly as you know I do.

At 71 to 73, the deck can still be played but it is starting to show cracks. Something will give, either mana, creatures or the other spell types. You'll have a shortage of one sometimes

At higher that that, the deck will definitely short you something. The higher the count from that, the worse it gets. You might end up with a fistful of land and spells with no creatures showing up.

I know this isn't that good an explanation, but I just woke up.

But then why 70 instead of 68? Why 68 instead of 65? And so on.... Is it just testing and you like 70 best? Is that literally the only reason?

Because ....... I know you don't like to hear this, but people rigidly defend 60 for certain reasons. And the main one is that is the lowest card count you can run period. Past that, it's harder for me to understand rigidly defending 70 versus 72 or something similar.

Once you start going through card draw and tutoring and ramp, why 70 is the number is even harder to understand. Because any argument I've heard so far can as easily be applied to just that one more card.

Personally, I find "60-64, Deal with it" to be the best possible answer to "how many cards?" or "Only run 60 ever" discussions.
(Although, I'm pretty sure 61 and 64 were throwbacks to D13's auto-land thing so rather than suggesting it to others anymore, I merely state that it's how I play DotP. I should actually find out what decks are at what counts currently. I haven't been paying attention lately...)

ok, Splattercat, from now on I'm adopting your motto and I'm just not going to get into this argument again. I've explained why x amount at least 25 times in this and the other forum and still I get the same question. I'm frankly bored to the point of aggravation even debating it anymore. Aggravation at myself from ever trying a different way to play the game and explaining it to others.

I won't post in this thread again, but will leave with this statement: Don't limit yourselves due to what anyone else says. Do your own testing and only consult others for 2nd opinions.

N-N-N-N-N-Necro!!!

I was bored and went to the last page desperate for something to read. Behold.. this again. Lol!