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 Post subject: Re: Gwent
PostPosted: Fri Sep 01, 2017 3:26 am 
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I don't run Yaevinn in my build (usually a crime not to run your spy but I really haven't missed it) but I see your points.

CDPR need to pick set baselines and stick to them. Personally I think card colour is too vague a balancing tool (unlike mana for instance which has an obvious cost to power ratio) but that isn't to say cant set your average bronze to power x and silvers should reach power y etc. Even taking into account combos and interactions it can't be that hard to limit the ceiling on a card.

Bronze power level especially is way out of sync right now. You have cards that are useless and see zero play versus cards that consistently reach 20 strength which is silly. I honestly thought last patch almost had it right. Obviously Dagon, Coral, Reavers etc were too powerful but the game as a whole felt good and could be tuned with a few tweaks. The sweeping changes and massive power creep have left the game feeling broken.

I'm going to claim my easy 4K (that Mulligan thug life) and quit until they hotfix/patch the game back into some sort of equilibrium.

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 Post subject: Re: Gwent
PostPosted: Fri Sep 01, 2017 6:04 am 
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@Vert, I forgot to say, keep all the weather clear BTW.

I don't know about you but White Frost is everywhere on PC, people seem to insist on playing Eredin even though it has zero tempo and stuff like Adepts are being run in NR which is picking up steam (the armour build can actually go toe to toe with Mulligan but it takes longer to set up, meaning you can still usually force the advantage). But there's another reason: run Igni over S'thessis. I've been fooling around, reading reddit and looking for easy ways to win the mirror. I've already mention Hailstorm which is so good against everything but spells, but Igni isn't really nerfed due to power creep and the movement on the clear sets it up really easily. It makes mirror matches and NR a breeze to play against.

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 Post subject: Re: Gwent
PostPosted: Fri Sep 01, 2017 8:45 am 
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Watching Lifecoach get huge Pirate Captains by Restoring a Skirmisher to hand then discarding it. For Skellige's glory!

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 Post subject: Re: Gwent
PostPosted: Fri Sep 01, 2017 12:08 pm 
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I considered Igni. I didn't know how difficult the 25 power barrier is to hit and felt Scorch-Dragon might have been safer, but I'll test it. I guess if I'm consistently generating 80 power Round 1 and 2, the only way they could keep up is if at least one row was 25+.

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 Post subject: Re: Gwent
PostPosted: Fri Sep 01, 2017 2:04 pm 
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FYI there is confirmed hotfix incoming and the special ranked ladder has been delayed until it is implemented. Boost your MMR while you can!

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 Post subject: Re: Gwent
PostPosted: Fri Sep 01, 2017 2:30 pm 
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Sjokwaave wrote:
FYI there is confirmed hotfix incoming and the special ranked ladder has been delayed until it is implemented. Boost your MMR while you can!


I'm only like 10-4 on ranked. My attention isn't high enough for me to really grind the ladder right now, especially with Gwent's equivalent to an OP aggro deck.

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 Post subject: Re: Gwent
PostPosted: Fri Sep 01, 2017 2:41 pm 
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I wish Dandelion were neutral. He'd be alot of fun in the Elves deck.

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 Post subject: Re: Gwent
PostPosted: Fri Sep 01, 2017 2:46 pm 
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divinevert wrote:
I wish Dandelion were neutral. He'd be alot of fun in the Elves deck.


Yeah because the deck doesn't have enough going for it /s

I totally understand the lack of motivation to play but I'm on forced vacation right now due to renovations and have nothing to do until my buddies finish work so grinding is filling my day and the quicker I get to 4K the quicker I can quit and wait until the hotfix hits and the meta settles to decide if I want to come back.

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 Post subject: Re: Gwent
PostPosted: Fri Sep 01, 2017 2:53 pm 
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Sjokwaave wrote:
divinevert wrote:
I wish Dandelion were neutral. He'd be alot of fun in the Elves deck.


Yeah because the deck doesn't have enough going for it /s


At least Dandelion would create unconventional and interesting plays. The problem with Elves is the deck basically plays itself.

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 Post subject: Re: Gwent
PostPosted: Fri Sep 01, 2017 10:54 pm 
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Sjokwaave wrote:
@Vert, I forgot to say, keep all the weather clear BTW.

I don't know about you but White Frost is everywhere on PC, people seem to insist on playing Eredin even though it has zero tempo and stuff like Adepts are being run in NR which is picking up steam (the armour build can actually go toe to toe with Mulligan but it takes longer to set up, meaning you can still usually force the advantage). But there's another reason: run Igni over S'thessis. I've been fooling around, reading reddit and looking for easy ways to win the mirror. I've already mention Hailstorm which is so good against everything but spells, but Igni isn't really nerfed due to power creep and the movement on the clear sets it up really easily. It makes mirror matches and NR a breeze to play against.


I played a bit more and I don't think Eredin is terrible. The Warriors are 11 power if they trigger, which is much easier now given the new condition. Drowners are also 11 power initially and potentially more afterwards, while the ships are usually worth about there in long rounds. Nithral is a 5-power body tacked on top of an Alzur's Thunder as well. If you argue that it's terrible compared to Mulligan then yeah, but that's because Mulligan is overpowered. If the upcoming hotfix pulls Mulligan back into line with the other decks then Eredin could very well be a competitive deck. Shed a tear for the other monsters leaders though since they seem awful.

Right now I feel like monsters could use better gold cards. Several are still solid (Caranthir, Caretaker, Imlerith, Woodland Spirit) but it's hard to call them great. I was wrong about Kayran as well. I actually crafted that card then regretted it the very first game while looking at it in my hand, before it was even played. In the best case scenario it'll eat some 6-power unit. Since it's 4-power itself, that makes it a 16-power gold ... decent but not great at all. The worst case scenario is having to eat a 1-power unit and then woohoo, 6-power gold incoming.

Completely agree with you and vert as well about the state of balance. Right now the game isn't very fun. Personally I would've taken a popular deck from last patch, kept most of it untouched, and stipulated that this deck must remain competitive even after the patch.

On another note Hakeem your prediction about Merigold's Hailstorm being a sleeper has come true!


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 Post subject: Re: Gwent
PostPosted: Sat Sep 02, 2017 7:09 am 
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Man Spelltel is just as silly as mulligan. At least adopt the Magic system where a spell cast with Flashback is exiled, not goes into the graveyard, or make Tremors not spawn Earth Elementals if it kills your own units. Farseer is also busted imo - it should not boost from casting any spell.


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 Post subject: Re: Gwent
PostPosted: Sat Sep 02, 2017 7:58 am 
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Yeah the Farseer/Protector combo is nuts, and Sage is broken. Put one Alzur's Thunder I'm your deck and bam, three bronze Dethmolds.

I think the fact they delayed the pro ladder is a solid sign there's a hotfix imminent and I can't see these Scoia decks not being addressed somehow.

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 Post subject: Re: Gwent
PostPosted: Sat Sep 02, 2017 8:55 pm 
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Eredin doesn't even really play like control. Nothing does. Those officers can routinely be 20+ point bronze units.

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 Post subject: Re: Gwent
PostPosted: Sat Sep 02, 2017 10:50 pm 
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Doesn't help that the NR deck is boring af.

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 Post subject: Re: Gwent
PostPosted: Sun Sep 03, 2017 2:22 am 
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divinevert wrote:
Eredin doesn't even really play like control. Nothing does. Those officers can routinely be 20+ point bronze units.


Well, I've been having some success with this list (admittedly in casual mode only):

Eredin

2x Wild Hunt Warrior
2x Wild Hunt Longship
3x Wild Hunt Hound
3x Biting Frost
3x Drowner
2x Wild Hunt Navigator

1x White Frost
1x Abaya
1x Ifrit
1x Nithral
1x Scorch
1x Frightener

1x Caranthir
1x Geralt: Aard
1x Imlerith
1x Drought

The deck exploits the fact that most decks don't seem to be running weather clear anymore. For example Dethmold used to be core in every NR deck and now it isn't, same goes for Water Hag / Abaya in monsters. The deck can put out a total of nine rows of weather, and has Drowners + Aard + Frightener to force opponents to keep taking damage. The control is strong enough that one game against a NR player I actually ended a 5-card round 3 with him having literally zero power (he did walk into a 22-point Scorch though). One thing I like about the deck is that I can mulligan freely. The only card I really don't want in my hand is Biting Frost.

The Scoietal decks are bad matchups but I'd be surprised if any deck has a good matchup against them. It's still possible to win vs. mulligan if they commit too many Officers in a single round that I can pass on. I won my last game for example after baiting a pass with Frightener in round 1, passing after going ~30 points down in round 2 vs. two Officers, and then using Drowner and Aard to attrition through his 2x row weather clear in round 3. He probably believed that round 2 was going to go for longer after I coated his board with White Frost, hence the Officers play. Spelltel is very hard. It feels like the best way to beat that is to lose the coin flip, then play Frightener. That gives them nothing on my board to attack, invalidating a large swathe of their cards. If they play on, I pass. If they don't, I win the round, then start by playing silver / gold weather in round 2, again giving them nothing to attack. Playing Wild Hunt Hound is also OK - as a 3-power body I'm happy if they use an Alzur's Thunder on it.

One possible problem is that mulligans can actually be quite hard since all the individual cards are so good. I tend to mulligan duplicates of every bronze Wild Hunt unit (reasoning that Navigator can pull out more), along with Biting Frost of course. If you play this remember that Imlerith and WH Warrior do not deal maximum damage with Drought - save those for frost rounds. The deck also likes long rounds since it's got weather, so if I win round 1 I tend to pass round 2 without playing.

Cards I'm thinking of: Jotun for obvious reasons, and Earth Elemental (probably over the Longships) since there're quite a few turns where I'm just continuing the round and counting the weather ticks. The Longships seem like the weakest bronze cards. They could generate 11-13 power, but so can the WH Warriors and Drowners. Eredin bringing out a Rider is also 13 power, potentially more if frost is on the board.


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 Post subject: Re: Gwent
PostPosted: Sun Sep 03, 2017 2:48 am 
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Why Drought over Rag? You have no Baron payoff and hitting the highest unit ensures more ticks...

Anyways, what are you guys looking for in the hotfix? In terms of Scoia'Tael I think Officer only gaining a set strength and Vanguard being capped to boosting 5 units is a start. Wardancer reduced to 3 strength and Francesca should lose the boost. I wouldn't do much else (apart from fix Morenn bugs - the card itself is fine) because there are other decks that are already viable and can fight the deck. The aim isn't to gut decks (even though I really couldn't care less if I ever saw an ST deck on the ladder again) but to create a balanced environment. For spells Sage should banish and Tremors should spawn a generic token rather than an Earth Ele.

Dumb Banana Obese Horse Fancier might need a tune too, because in the absence of a strong Mulligan deck NR armor instantly becomes king as it is already resistant to spells.

I'd like to see another round of buffs to the unused cards as well, but in reality that isn't going to happen until the next patch.

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 Post subject: Re: Gwent
PostPosted: Sun Sep 03, 2017 3:26 am 
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Make officer boost by 3 if you mulligan and make them front row units.

Boom, mulligan falls back to the pack.

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 Post subject: Re: Gwent
PostPosted: Sun Sep 03, 2017 3:38 am 
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I use Drought over Rag because I have bad memories from playing Dagon fog - fog doesn't actually kill units, but frost will. E.g. War Longships, Redanian Knight Elects, Octvist - I can reduce their health and let frost kill them, but fog won't. It's possible in the new meta this matters less, I haven't played enough to see.

For the hotfix: nerfs to Officer, Tremors, Saskia, Isengrim, Farseer, Sage, and Trololol. I'd also like some buffs to consume and Axemen, don't know if that's realistic in a hotfix though.

Officer: Less power.
Tremors: Should not trigger on killing your own units. Spawning something other than an Earth Elemental might also be an idea, since EEs have carryover.
Saskia: Less power.
Isengrim: Less power. Already tutors for two strong silver cards, so it shouldn't have 7 power.
Farseer: Should not boost from units in the deck.
Sage: Spells resurrected should be doomed.
Trololol: Less power (or one armor / turn).

One other thing is that there seem to be many more agile units now than row-bound ones. I'd probably rectify that.


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 Post subject: Re: Gwent
PostPosted: Sun Sep 03, 2017 7:23 am 
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The hotfix doesn't need to address a whole lot, I don't think, just a few cards. I'm okay with Stammelford's Tremors generating points but not with it providing carryover - just have it spawn the two Lesser Earth Elementals and I'm sure it's fine. Elven Wardancer was fine at 3 points, it should go back to that. Vrihedd Officer needs a power reduction, I really don't care how they do it. Sage should be like MTG flashback and exile the spell. Dun Banner Heavy Cavalry should not have 8 base strength and Trollolo should only generate 1 armor per turn.

Francesca needs to be dumpstered, the card is just stupid. No boost and no grabbing golds would probably be fine but I think she needs a power reduction as well. They took away Brouver's access to silver spells and then gave Francesca this?!? I don't get it.

It's possible that other stuff needs tweaking but I would start small and see what rises to the fore after the few blatantly obvious changes are made.

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 Post subject: Re: Gwent
PostPosted: Sun Sep 03, 2017 9:40 am 
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divinevert wrote:
Make officer boost by 3 if you mulligan and make them front row units.

Boom, mulligan falls back to the pack.



That really isn't enough. I've abused the deck to gain rank in an awful meta, and the fact Vanguard can **** out 10 points just by being mulligan'd and you start a game with 8 points is silly. Officer was obviously overpowered but your nerf isn't enough to hold the deck in check when Zoltan, Igni and Hailstorm blow out the deck's main competitor round 3. People tried to counter the deck but it was way to easy to abuse their own tech to mulligan's advantage.

@Hakeem. I think not grabbing golds kills Francesca. I agree with no boost and maybe a points reduction, but Mulligan's value comes from bronze units. If you nerf them and the leader then you cripple the archetype entirely which just hurts a balanced meta. Target drawing any card is extremely powerful but hitting the bronze problem cards brings the faction as a whole in check and allows Francesca to exist without causing problems. Mill will already destroy Elves after bronze nerfs so a hard counter already exists. I want a balanced meta were most decks are viable rather than gutting a deck just because it causes problems right now.

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