No Goblins Allowed :: A pick order, now that we're deep into the season

I actually really like pick order articles. Not because they are definitive guides or anything, but it is interesting to see how other people (who are obviously good at magic think). We try to do this with the card ratings as well, but there is something to be said for doing the whole set at once

For example:
The article quoted above has Imp > Coat > Hand > Glee
Pantheon has Hand > Coat > Imp > Glee
Karsten has Imp > DEFEAT > Hand > Glee > Coat... but he also has Corpseweft in there, which I think is totally wrong.

However, in all these cases (with the exception of defeat for Karsten). These guys are good players and get in WAY more drafts than my 1/week. I just consider the pick orders as a discussion.

Obviously if you print out pick order lists and bring it to a draft you deserve what you get.

Author:	Zlehtnoba [ Sun May 10, 2015 3:48 am ]
Post subject:	A pick order, now that we're deep into the season
http://www.channelfireball.com/home/dragons-of-tarkir-limited-primer-gp-atlantic-city/ I know that these things are a dime a dozen, but this one has a few things (the first two below) that tie in with what I've been trying to do in the redraft thread, so I couldn't resist: Reckless Imp before Coat with Venom, Hand of Silumgar, and Butcher's Glee Sarkhan's Rage over Twin Bolt as the best red common Temur Sabertooth is not good anymore (if it ever was), as black can now kill it with a lot of commons. Zephyr Scribe over Gurmag Drowner A quote about white: Sandsteppe Outcast is great but the best thing about white in Fate Reforged is all the broken cards you get if there aren't other white drafters around you. It's not uncommon to be passed bombs like Elite Scaleguard, Citadel Siege, Dragonscale General, or Mastery of the Unseen 3rd-pick or later because there are usually only 2 or 3 white drafters. Also if you are white/black you will very likely get all the Harsh Sustenances that are opened. All in all, an interesting read, even if you don't agree with all that hard-won experience of a pro player.

Author:	Shadowchu [ Sun May 10, 2015 5:43 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: A pick order, now that we're deep into the season
give a man a fish and you feed him for a day; teach a man to fish and you feed him for a lifetime

Author:	Shadowchu [ Sun May 10, 2015 5:46 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: A pick order, now that we're deep into the season
I wouldn't read this "article" if you had any want to get better at limited. Having somebody tell you the pick order for a draft is basically assigning that you will never learn how to evaluate card quality and would rather have somebody draft for you instead. This is the type of article in modern Magic that is harming the community rather than helping. In your life you don't listen to the commercials in which people promise you that you can make money fast from the comfort of your own home, so I don't see why people are so obsessed with these "get good at magic the easy way" articles. Nothing against you, Zleht, just expressing my disdain for the nonsense of the article.

Author:	Zenbitz [ Sun May 10, 2015 11:16 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: A pick order, now that we're deep into the season
I actually really like pick order articles. Not because they are definitive guides or anything, but it is interesting to see how other people (who are obviously good at magic think). We try to do this with the card ratings as well, but there is something to be said for doing the whole set at once For example: The article quoted above has Imp > Coat > Hand > Glee Pantheon has Hand > Coat > Imp > Glee Karsten has Imp > DEFEAT > Hand > Glee > Coat... but he also has Corpseweft in there, which I think is totally wrong. However, in all these cases (with the exception of defeat for Karsten). These guys are good players and get in WAY more drafts than my 1/week. I just consider the pick orders as a discussion. Obviously if you print out pick order lists and bring it to a draft you deserve what you get.

Author:	POSValkir [ Mon May 11, 2015 12:05 am ]
Post subject:	Re: A pick order, now that we're deep into the season
How to get good at life: Repeatedly ram your head into a wall and ignore anything anyone says. Pain leads to progress, not intelligent discourse. The articles serve to supplement experience and provide additional information. People are obsessed with these articles in the same way they are obsessed with college. It is the closest thing to "higher learning" Magic has. I found the articles points fairly interesting. I havent done particularly well in this draft season, and articles like this help provide clues to what I'm missing. It's not just about "card quality" but about understanding the archetypes and various synergies. I particularly enjoyed the deck layouts at the end of the article.

No Goblins Allowed http://862838.jrbdt8wd.asia/

A pick order, now that we're deep into the season http://862838.jrbdt8wd.asia/viewtopic.php?f=33&t=9361	Page 1 of 2

Author:	Shadowchu [ Mon May 11, 2015 12:59 am ]
Post subject:	Re: A pick order, now that we're deep into the season
Zenbitz wrote: I actually really like pick order articles. Not because they are definitive guides or anything, but it is interesting to see how other people (who are obviously good at magic think). We try to do this with the card ratings as well, but there is something to be said for doing the whole set at once For example: The article quoted above has Imp > Coat > Hand > Glee Pantheon has Hand > Coat > Imp > Glee Karsten has Imp > DEFEAT > Hand > Glee > Coat... but he also has Corpseweft in there, which I think is totally wrong. However, in all these cases (with the exception of defeat for Karsten). These guys are good players and get in WAY more drafts than my 1/week. I just consider the pick orders as a discussion. Obviously if you print out pick order lists and bring it to a draft you deserve what you get. My problem with them is the same as with sideboarding guides. It's most about getting "good" quick without putting the time and effort into it. It's better to learn how to become a good limited player rather than just having somebody tell you what is good. It's good that you read the article and get more than the surface level, but you're already smarter than the average magic player. There are a lot of people who are going to look at these and just take them for gospel. These types of articles are bad for the Magic community as a whole. I've seen the quality of article sharply decline recently because everybody wants to be a Pro without actually putting the work in.

Author:	Zenbitz [ Mon May 11, 2015 1:18 am ]
Post subject:	Re: A pick order, now that we're deep into the season
Quote: There are a lot of people who are going to look at these and just take them for gospel. Yet another reason to read them! You need to know the groupthink metagame!!!

Author:	Shadowchu [ Mon May 11, 2015 1:43 am ]
Post subject:	Re: A pick order, now that we're deep into the season
they teach you to be a farm raised fish.

Author:	Zlehtnoba [ Mon May 11, 2015 3:10 am ]
Post subject:	Re: A pick order, now that we're deep into the season
I love seeing things like GB is unplayable in this article, and GB has the highest win rate of all two-color combinations in Ars Arcanum. Also, it's very clear that the author's play style dictates his pick order (as opposed to some other lists which are a product of collective wisdom). That article made me think, fine, he wants to draft UW skies, and he's trying to get rid of the competition. Lately, the sets have improved enormously for limited play, and there are many ways to draft a fine deck. All those pick orders go out the window after the first few picks, when your deck starts taking over. I think that, with a certain degree of experience, it's very possible to draft a good deck, and that many draft decks will be comparable in power level. The play part is becoming more important lately. Which is great, as there is no more frustrating experience than losing to a bad drafter who just happened to open a bomb, and drew it every game. There are a lot of answers, so that while a good deck with a bomb will beat you, a bad one probably won't. Shadowchu, I think I see what you mean by the "getting good quick" comment. And it's certainly true that at least in part, these articles are a commercial for the web page. That's life. But, at least in part, those fish pay for the game we love, even if they will probably be gone in a year. The fact that some players use these articles as they shouldn't be used doesn't mean that others shouldn't try to learn from them.

Author:	Zenbitz [ Mon May 11, 2015 12:45 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: A pick order, now that we're deep into the season
Yeah, I am not a fan of GB but it's certainly not unplayable! I will say this for (not limited) sideboarding guides: Once I started reading these, I realized I am not going to devote enough time in the forseeable future to constructed to be any good at it. Which saved me some time and money. Now I just throw together something OK that I can screw around with and don't enter constructed events.

Author:	Johnny [ Mon May 11, 2015 1:34 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: A pick order, now that we're deep into the season
whoa there sally, careful with the sabertooth comment. or i'll have to defend the sabertooth's honor with a why it is a good card debate remember when my opp foolishly put a pacify on my sabertooth. and how i thought to myself. "ok fine so for the rest of the game all my creatures have 1G return to hand" or in other words 1G counter targeted removal spell, or 1G lets reset hidden dragon slayer, or 1G no butcher's glee for you , or 1G Sandsteppe outcast or rakshasha gravecrawler needs another turn. or 1G block your 9/5 conifer strider and return mygladewatcher to my hand. And this is just some positive interactions from a pacifism put on it. Further comments on why sabertooth is an amazing card upon request

Author:	thatmarkguy [ Mon May 11, 2015 1:51 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: A pick order, now that we're deep into the season
But with Flatten and Death Wind both available at common in DDF, there's twice as many common removals that deal with this pest than in the previous limited meta. And they both do it for 4 mana (the common solution in FKK draft was Throttle and it cost 5). It's still damned good, but it's not as dominant as it was in FKK because there are now more common answers.

Author:	Shazzeh [ Mon May 11, 2015 2:21 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: A pick order, now that we're deep into the season
Death Wind is uncommon.

Author:	Zenbitz [ Mon May 11, 2015 2:25 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: A pick order, now that we're deep into the season
So it went from the 2nd or 3rd best Green card in fate reforged to the 2nd or 3rd best green card in fate reforged? BTW, I read the ars arcanum on GB, that was quite interesting.... Kinda want to play GB now.

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Author:	thatmarkguy [ Mon May 11, 2015 2:59 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: A pick order, now that we're deep into the season
Shazzeh wrote: Death Wind is uncommon. Damn you, gatherer filters! When I search for "Common and Dragons of Tarkir", I want "Was Common in Dragons of Tarkir", "not "Was Common in some expansion, and was some rarity in Dragons of Tarkir!"

Author:	Zlehtnoba [ Mon May 11, 2015 4:28 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: A pick order, now that we're deep into the season
Zenbitz wrote: So it went from the 2nd or 3rd best Green card in fate reforged to the 2nd or 3rd best green card in fate reforged? BTW, I read the ars arcanum on GB, that was quite interesting.... Kinda want to play GB now. Don't read too much into it, it really is hard to get a working GB deck together. I landed in one by accident today, went 1-2 with two close loses and an easy win. I think I was a couple of removals short of a good deck. I did have the Sabertooth, played it in three games. It dominated one game, and did nothing in two others. It wasn't removed, it just wasn't relevant. Zombie Fish did more than Sabertooth.

Author:	Zenbitz [ Mon May 11, 2015 5:00 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: A pick order, now that we're deep into the season
My only GB deck I had Sidisi and Surrak but they didn't really complement, and I think I went a .500-y 1-2.

Author:	Johnny [ Tue May 12, 2015 7:08 am ]
Post subject:	Re: A pick order, now that we're deep into the season
so black has a common,rare, and uncommon to deal with it. and that is the only color that can permanently remove it from the field? I just lost to a sabertooth whose mythic status just took over the entire game. and made my 2 sandblast, epic confration and enduring victory almost dead draws. basically i had a 5 mana return opp creature to their hand. Yuck

Author:	thatmarkguy [ Tue May 12, 2015 9:50 am ]
Post subject:	Re: A pick order, now that we're deep into the season
Ah, the other DTK black common that kills it is Silumgar Butcher. Reality Shift and Blessed Reincarnation issue replacement creatures but they do rid the field of the Sabertooth itself.

Author:	Zenbitz [ Tue May 12, 2015 11:24 am ]
Post subject:	Re: A pick order, now that we're deep into the season
Ironically I just lost a game to my son where I had both Mastery of the Unseen and Sabretooth! He ripped Return to earth stopping me at ca. 2 manifests, and had a bunch of 4/4s and a 7/6 against my army of 2/2s and 3/2s and Toothsome when he ripped Temur Battle Rage with me at 8.