In the Theros draft thread, some of you expressed the opinion that Theros is a bad draft format. Jman hates it, and rstnme thinks its a simple format with no variance. They both think it's a shallow format.

I happen to disagree. I think this format offered a lot of different viable color combinations, and that there were a lot of playables in all colors. I agree that the format is getting stale after three moths (or however long it's been around), and the better drafter you are, the faster this happens. But this does not mean that it is simple, or that it was solved quickly.

I'd like to hear some more opinions, if possible with arguments and examples. And please, lets not talk too much about Modern Masters. That set was designed to stand alone, and exclusively to be drafted. No sealed play, no ties to other sets, crazy constructed bombs to experiment with, and expensive, so not much drafted, so it didn't get a chance to go stale. It sets a bar that is simply impossible to meet with a normal release. I'd prefer some comparison to other recent draft environments, like RTR block, Rise of Eldrazi, Innistrad.

I think you can look at M14 as a mono-colored set with much more depth in it than Theros. The Angelic deck, the BR sac deck, the mono-green 14-land deck were all viable strategies that took singular cards and had decks built around them that functioned well and could win your draft. They deviated from standard in-color strategies, were interesting and fun to build, and could be created while people were still drafting in your colors.

Theros has no such depth. There is little deviance in deck archetypes. BR is aggro, WU is evasion/heroic, WR is herioc/aggro, GU is beaters, WB is midrange, GB is midrange, GW is midrange, UB is control, GR is monsters, and UR is terrible. The "deviance" in these is narrow. BR's "minotaur" deck is still an aggro deck (and not very good); GU's tempo plays still play out to give your creature board advantage, GB/BW can be control with enough sedge scorpions and baleful eidolons and scholars of anthros, but the difference between midrange and control in those decklists is only a few cards. The GB graveyard deck sucks, so no one drafts it, and the only way people are drafting 5-color and doing well is if they get a lucky amount of Nylea Presences in their pool (as well as Unicorns) and play opponents that inexplicably don't interact with their board.

Also, the removal sucks. It's worse than M14. Remember Liturgy of Blood? Whoosh, that was a spell.

I see what you mean: when you choose your colors, your deck is chosen for you. A color combination has a single viable deck. No mill deck, nothing offbeat, just the standard, solid, unexciting stuff.

That said, there's been a lot of three-color going around online lately. It works surprisingly well. A part of that is probably the novelty factor, and a part may be that RW is overdrafted and RB never seen, and so it's rare to see a really fast aggro deck.

Edit: Don't know why, but for some reason I keep accidentally double-posting.

Bestow is horrible for many reasons, and there isn't enough removal, and no good removal beyond a rare (which is obscene)
But Bestow is definitely my #1 reason for hating Theros.

I also disliked RTR block, but that was because there was a real reliance on Guildgates, but one of the best decks in the format was just "draft all the guildgates," which shafts the other 7 players. Triple RTR was pretty awesome though.

One of the things that makes a draft format a good one is the potential for interesting decks. Rise had Walls. INN had the Spider Spawning deck. M14 had the sac deck. And then to add to that, it has real archtypes and good removal.

As for MMA, I've done 7 drafts of it, and I'm pretty sure I would still want to draft it another 20 times. That format was actually interesting (even though green was probably the best color)

Edit: Also, it is ridiculously hard to draft a good aggro deck. I've stopped fearing the aggro decks, going so far as to run 7 5-drops, 3 6-drops, and 5 4-drops.
Sure, you can play any two color combo, but there are some which are just blatantly worse than the others.
I also solved the format to be "force black or red, then get blue or green."

I won't say that Theros is a bad draft format, I'll just say that it's one I don't enjoy. The primary reason for this is that proactive and tempo cards seem to be stronger than reactive and value cards, and I enjoy drafting decks based on value.

I have only drafted it like 8-9 times (probably as much as every other draft combined) so it's not exactly stale. And my first draft was a late season 3xGTC.

I was fine with M14 but everyone complained about how slow it was and how the cards sucked compared to RTR block and how all you had to do was draft Blue.

One guy won my pod at LGS with a UR scry deck. I agree that the GB graveyard is disapointing... and given the lack of GB temple we probably have to wait for full block. BotGs has piles of removal spoiled already.

I have also seems some very solid 4 color bombs decks.

People exaggerated the "need" to draft blue in M14. Mostly because a lot of the people who did refused to actually put forth effort beyond acting as parrots in an echo chamber.

I don't enjoy Theros limited because it's like Innistrad limited with all of the fun stuff taken out (Spider Spawning, Murder of Crows, Stitched Drake, Gatstaf Shepherd, Brimstone Volley, Abattoir Ghoul, Mausoleum Guard.) Even though Innistrad draft was very creature-centric- there was a great deal of excitement to it, and drafting Fortres Crabs, Silent Departures, and Murder of Crows week after week didn't feel like I was being forced to not play reactively, but was instead giving me better options to play more proactively. Theros is just much less exciting because everything feels so much less prone to snowball out of control- it just boils down to good tricks and good units- it has the same pitfall as AVR with committal mechanics.

I remember winning a PTQ side event and having people come up to me between rounds who'd watched me draft. All were incredibly critical and confused that I was winning, because I'd drafted blue and didn't have any opportunities, only one divination, and had passed a nutty WR aggro deck to my right and a BG deck to my left. They didn't seem to understand that 3 Warden of Evos Isles with a ton of other flyers was more than enough to house a pod, because you're right they just assumed there was only one way to draft blue and if you did it your deck was OP and if not it sucked.

I loved Warden in draft. But by far my favorite archtype was g/r in M14.

I like Theros Limited, but that's probably because it's the first limited format I've won in ever.
It probably doesn't help that it's about the only thing I've ever drafted, next maybe a game or two of RTR or something.
And back then, I had no clue what I was doing (not that I'm that much better now...).

I've really enjoyed Theros, and part of that is because I don't really like "going deep" on formats. I draft for consistency and to give me the most chances to make plays. I especially like how Theros has made combat tricks much, much more relevant than previous sets. It used to be that you would run Giant Growth and maybe one or two more combat tricks in a deck at maximum. Now three combat tricks is on the low end of things. The heart of Magic is creature combat I feel that Theros has gone really deep in that area, which I enjoy.

So, not to be a jerk but I was better at M14 draft than anybody else here. Jman, the reason everybody drafted blue because it contained the only two for ones in the format and was easily splash-able. Blue is hands down the best because it gets fought over consistently which then opens up other colors. From this, the second best color is white because it's the worst color. This sounds counter-intuitive but since everybody knew it was the worst color it was the best to draft. In every pack you take the best blue cards until they dry up and then you get a ton of good white cards. In my mind. UW control was always the best deck in the format. All of your creatures were impossible to kill. You would curve Seacoast Drakes into Griffin Sentinel, then played nephalia seakite. Then had actual two for ones to finish it off.

Moving onto Theros and why it's the worst draft format I've ever played. There is no skill involved. You suit up a giant monster or draft all of the removal at the table. Bestow is terrible for drafting because things that should be inherit two for ones are now just one for ones. Your opponent is never punished for playing poorly. This takes away skill from the game. Next, Heroic is terrible for drafting because the removal in the format is so terrible that you can just voltron a heroic guy and just send them into the red zone. Magic in which you cannot interact with your opponent is not fun Magic especially in draft formats where the spell quality is lower which makes games more interactive. In my opinion, the people who really enjoy theros are people who enjoy playing extremely pro active racing strategies or like to get free wins because your opponent can't do anything to win. If I was worse at Magic I think Theros would be great because I could play extremely poorly and still win drafts. Drafting is some of the most skill intensive parts of Magic and Theros is certainly not that.

I know you are several levels above me in drafting skill. I understand the parts where you say that there is less interaction, and that players are not punished for mistakes. But the quote above is what I can't agree with. This is just something you need to take into account, and adjust your pick order for. I enjoy the way different environments make me reevaluate what I think I know about the game.

There is also something I'm not sure about: are you saying that it is less likely for a good player to win against a worse one in Theros draft than in, say, M14?

I'm pretty sure when I'm getting to the point where I'm playing Zac Hill and beating Tom Martell I'm by default the best m14 player. But I'm tryin to be a jerk

Bestow closes a lot of the skill gap between players. Especially the "no lose" situation when casting the spells.

I agree that bestow allows weak players to make more mistakes. But beating weak players not challeging anyway.

So you get fewer cheap wins. Bad for the EV but at least as fun.

Basically this.

In M14 the auras were really powerful but the removal in M14 was so good that it made them less and less viable. Yeah, some opponents would get free wins against me because I couldn't beat a Trollhide in time but at least I had a lot of options to 2 for 1 them and catch back up.

In Theros, the bestow puts you behind and keeps you there. Once you are behind your opponent you cannot do anything to catch up. This makes playing proactive strategies the only viable ones which is not good for a limited format. This makes games less interesting and takes away the skill gap between players.

It isn't fun to play correctly and not be rewarded. Its even worse when the person who plays incorrectly is rewarded.

Its like playing Counterstrike, and you headshot someone with a Deagle, and they don't die. Then they shoot at you from across the map with a shotgun and it kills you from full HP.