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PostPosted: Tue Feb 04, 2014 2:49 pm 
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I thought this should go in it's own thread:

Rate Card on Utility in Limited - combination of raw power and efficiency from 1-5
Examples from recent sets:
5 - Pack Rat, Elspeth, Sun's Champion - Stone cold bomb,
4 - Sea God's Revenge, Agent of Fates - Very hard to beat
3 - Lash of the Whip, Spearpoint Oread - Solid picks in color
2 - Nylea's Disciple, Crackling Triton - Basic Playables
1 - Spark Jolt, Asphodel Wanderer - Doesn't do a lot, but better than an extra land.
0 - Pyxis of Pandemonium - Useless.

-AND-

Rate Card on playability in Limited - essentially how much of your mana base needs to be devoted to casting it and whether or not it goes in all decks or not.
5 - Late game, 1 mana symbol Sea Gods' Revenge (<4 sources) - premium utility spells
4 - Mid game, 1 mana symbol [c]Lighting Strike[c] (4-5 sources) - most removal
3 - Early game, 1 mana symbol, or expensive 2 mana symbols (not a splash) (6-7 sources) - most creatures
2 - mixed medium CMC cards (8-9 sources) - combat tricks or enchantments
1 - costs like or on curve- 10+ sources - cards of limited scope
0 - Triple mana or double-double - As many sources as you can squeeze in. - extremely narrow cards

In some sense you can think of "playability" as the converse of synergy. Cards that synergize with LOTS of cards or don't synergize at all are highly playable in any deck. If they are also powerful, they will get highly picked. Cards that really demand a strategy or 'build around' may be picked lower than their raw power level would suggest.

I leave the 0.5 values for the gallery to debate about.

=====
The purpose of 2-channel system is to avoid the annoying "this would be a 5 but it's it's not splashable because it it's ".
Also - it serves to distinguish between 1st pack (more vaccuum-y) picks and later picks.

Some cards are always good and you and always play them. 4/4s (e.g., [c]Lightning Strike[/c]
Some cards are only good if you are in the color. 4/1s (e.g., Fated Conflagration)

Some cards are much better in archetype -- combat tricks with heroic, or minotaurs lords with minotaurs, so they should be dinged in playability.

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PostPosted: Tue Feb 04, 2014 4:52 pm 
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I think you underestimate Spark Jolt. With BNG in the mix, the number of kill-worthy 1-toughness critters went way up.

So, how about some examples?

Wingsteed Rider 3.5/2
Gray Merchant of Asphodel 2/2
Keepsake Gorgon 4/3
Nessian Asp 4/4

Gary has me baffled. It's certainly not powerful on its own, and it requires a highly dedicated deck, so both scores should be low. But you can certainly build a good deck around him.

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PostPosted: Tue Feb 04, 2014 7:27 pm 
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Hmmm... Gary is a good edge case for the classifier. I think all your other numbers are pretty close - asp might be a 3.5 since it does cost 5 which matters

I actually think Gary might be a 4/1. In black devotion, or in multiples, it's a slam-dunk finisher. It's actually a lot like an inverted Sea God's Revenge. If you actually get to 6 mana it's a blowout - note that in the Theros MTGO online analysis it had a great win % WHEN CAST, but there are a pretty decent number of games where you are already dead or already so far ahead by the time you can cast it that it's irrelevant. It can't be a 5 in power. because you actually need some sort of guy on your side to take advantage of a clear board. While Elspeth wins the game single handed.

It's not hard to CAST but you really need a very heavy black deck to take advantage. Wingsteed is at least a wind drake.

a 2/4 drain 2 for 5 is not a good card, although it's playable. But you need to pick it early because the potential power is so great if you have 2-3 of them + other black cards. In fact, it's hateable just to prevent the guy going black from getting multiples (since it's a common, this is relevant).

So, 4/1.

I don't think I can give Spark Jolt a 2, 1.5 maybe. Many theros decks it's totally dead against (well 1 to the face scry 1) I guess it's a 3 on castability. But it's true I am not considering BNG, perhaps it got better.

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PostPosted: Tue Feb 04, 2014 10:14 pm 
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spearpoint is not good. you probably want to put wind drake there.

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PostPosted: Wed Feb 05, 2014 4:45 am 
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This is already complicated, but I think you need a third grade, for potential. That's where cards like Gary and Wingsteed Rider would get high points. If you pick it early, and are able to build a deck around them, they are almost bombs. In just any in-color deck, Rider is good, because in Theros you play combat tricks and bestow regardless of whether you have heroes or not; and Gary is actually bad. So, grade one, card on sheer power level, without regard to color requirements and the rest of your deck; grade two, how easy it is to cast, like you have in your examples; and grade three, the potential it can achieve with the right support.

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PostPosted: Wed Feb 05, 2014 11:31 am 
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I really think a linear grading scale like the one CG uses it going to be simpler to discuss. We already debate the difference between a 2 and a 2.5, Armageddon would happen if we started discussing the difference between a 3/1 and a 2.5/1.5 on the forums. Plus, people will be more likely to post.

K.I.S.S. ya know?

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PostPosted: Wed Feb 05, 2014 12:20 pm 
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I actually liked the internal WoTC system (http://www.wizards.com/magic/magazine/a ... ily/ld/274) for simplicity:

A = Wind Drake (or better)
B = Blind Phantasm aka Felhide Minotaur (or better)
C = worse than that

But I feel like people like discussing the finer nuances like Keepsake Gorgon vs. Gary.

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PostPosted: Wed Feb 05, 2014 12:21 pm 
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rstnme wrote:
spearpoint is not good. you probably want to put wind drake there.


Wind Drake is > 3 isn't it? 3.5 for sure. I guess spear point is more of a 2.5 aka B+.

I am happy to go back to Greven's system.

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PostPosted: Wed Feb 05, 2014 2:30 pm 
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3.5 would be something like Ghor-Clan Rampager or Beetleform Mage or Gray Merchant. It's not impossible to stop but it warps the board around it or has an immediate affect that changes the game state.

A 3.0 is solid at any point of the game, like a wind drake.

A 2/2 ground creature is too quickly outclassed to be anything much over 2, and its ridiculously high bestow cost isn't worth much in the late game, particularly in a color that would prefer to close things out sooner.

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