I considered the thought, but then discarded it, since I thought that would be dumb. Either way, it's a 50% chance that your win condition is trivialized in some fashion or another, but my point was mainly that Scrambleverse wasn't the only card that would let him win straight away.


I'm pretty speechless as well. "You had lots of options! I won't tell you a single one, but you were still really stupid!"
Are you implying I somehow had the thought of claiming Thallid from round 1 or something? I came up with it in the span of about an hour because it was one of the few ways I could try to eek out an advantage given my situation, but you keep berating me over it, despite not being able to propose another line of play. If you're not going to put any effort toward rationalizing your stance, then yes, please do remain speechless.


I was the one that created the scenario, and while I have no idea how or why, I'm pretty sure it got him killed, so I don't know where you want to go with this. Or was I supposed to go against him after he was resurrected and confirmed town? I don't think I have to elaborate on that.


I don't. I just can't stand how you publicly criticize me for doing something I find to be entirely rational, without being able to expand on it. (And a slew of other things, like Crag Saurian being terrible game design; not making the action limitation transparent; Thallid being magnitudes better in the hands of Town in a game where the abilities are supposed to be designed without alignment in mind; and the notion that the setup is somehow balanced when you included a role that randomly redistributed each role. I'm also upset about Mindslaver not doing what it should, but that was somewhat outside of your control.)

Normally I avoid post game chatter because it is, to me in my honest opinion, a popularity contest of sorts. But I do have to side with Zinger on his assessment of the game.

First, it is a fact you guys (the mafia) acted without all the information you needed. The way D1 went I have no problem with. Alt was lynched for refusing to cooperate (on top of something else as far as my perspective was concerned). I even understand the choices D1. I would have wanted the current list of cards as well since people were claiming old roles to get them out in the open (as best as they could).

After that D2 is where I truly believe you all snafued. The day cop, who revealed himself D1, was still alive. Ok. Obv, if there is a doc protecting him, you could try eliminating him with multiple kill abilities. Anything to get rid of him. I mean being a Day Cop and given that you guys (PopPa mainly) talked about getting rid of Rubik like a priority it seemed to me like you guys should have done this, but you didn't. Instead, you guys went with the zerg strat to utilize Eli's card in error. Yes, I truly believe that was a misplay. When you voted on D1 Eli, I had no idea you were the source of the extra votes. Course we had a lot of people voting anyway. If anyone had thought you were Lord of the Pit, they sure as hell didn't voice it. It wasn't until you outed yourself with Story that you guys literally went down hill.

And Zinger is right about you guys relying heavily on your roles -- but before I get to that, Mown you screwed up too. Zinger is completely right about that... Just as I stated in the thread when I asked you to explain your thought process. You were under no threat of investigation or suspicion really compared to a lurky PopPa or US or maybe even Neo being mafia (although the kill did earn him town points). You literally helped drive the mafia team into the ground by putting the noose around your own neck by claiming a role that obviously belonged to someone else. Now don't get me wrong, I'd understand this IF it was in a situation where you needed town to mislynch in order to win as mafia. Especially if a day investigation wasn't available. But your choice to do that then and there was, and excuse me, made in serious error. You were completely better off by not doing that and just playing the game as another player.

Story was the only person to literally play the game by posting enough to contribute with us as far as I am concerned. Sure, the rest of you posted some like Mown and PopPa (during D1 anyway). Eli, not so much. Literally had you guys just "played"/interacted with the town to help sow chaos with viewpoints much like how alt and I went at it numerous times, it would have helped shape viewpoints in a myriad of ways. But you guys didn't.

Regardless of whether it is harsh or not, Zinger has an accurate viewpoint of the mafia for this game. I'll exclude PopPa though due to his diehard keeping to his playstyle of lurking. I will note though that he gets points for actually contributing so as to not be lynched first thereby depriving his team of a good role in the beginning. I found it odd he was contributing in a helpful way unlike many previous games here. But he went back to being himself later which is fine as far as I'm concerned.

Main thing is that you guys could have done a lot better by playing it carefully. That's a fact given what could have been out there (and if you don't think you should have to consider thinking about the unknown a lot, then you should change that perspective into one based more in paranoia. You never know when something bad may happen -- Murphy's Law after all).

If I didn't do anything that day, you guys would have killed febb 99%, and I would eventually just lose the game since I was vanilla at that point.

Yes, a problem you guys had perpetuated by the lack of involved deception on your parts. US wasn't active much. I didn't see any of you even trying to misdirect from PP to anyone else. A hole that you guys dug and ended up sleeping in.

Also I love that you guys had lotp, but I hate how you guys tried to use it that early. Maybe, just maybe, if you guys could have ensured that you could act right away reach day, then sure. But I do think a little caution would have gone a long way for you guys.

The only thing I found weird was that you didn't even try to play the game on day 2 instead of waiting until a mafia player was nearly lynched and then proceed with the quicklynches.

Its a pretty flimsy logic that says 'I didnt notice it so you werent at risk' KoD. Several other players have already said they noticed what I did to day 1 voting. And the town player who had my role had explained it for everyone. Dont equate the fact you had not paid attention, to there being no risk. I had two choices in this game. Lurk all the time and only ever place a vote when it would be the second last vote, or go all out. Town or Mafia, once my role was in the open, I was dead.

I didn't notice the day one voting issue until after the day two votes.
Mostly because, I had already had more than enough votes to be lynched so I didn't care to verify. But, when I did, I discovered that the votes after hammer vote were greyed out.

For the record, Mown, I never called you stupid; nor do I believe you to be.

Correct. All you did was characterize my decision as 'godawful' and exclusively detrimental.

Sure, I didn't actually expect it to work on any level, I even said as much in the chat. But I don't believe I had anything to lose by doing so either.

So I got a PM saying I got an email from Zinger today, or the other way around, but now I'm too lazy to correct this sentence. Anyway, just wanted to say Zinger is a cool guy and was super nice/awesome in our PM exchanges after the game, and I'm glad everything worked out okay in terms of game completion.

@Eli:

Oh please. Let's actually dive into it then if that's how you want to be.

First, here is the vote log from D1.



One important note. When you voted, there was a lot of conversation and I mean a lot. So while it may have been obvious if people were paying attention that you could have bee LotP, we never got a chance to even discuss it. Let alone discuss anything about you being scum or not (and whether or not you would be worthy of a day cop investigation). Instead, you decided to jump the gun because you figured you may come under fire. You bypassed discussion entirely (no attempt at politics or anything with town). Hell, you had the surprise advantage with that ability, but once you used it the way you did on D2 you assured that Rubik would do what he did (block you).

No, you can't forsee a block if you've never experienced it before. But playing safely would have helped especially since even if you were outed they'd have to pile onto you right away. Nothing stops you from then enacting your plan -- especially since you could do it to Rubik (rather than JaC -- after all, you guys failed to kill him N1 so why not lynch him?). But that's hindsight. You guys were literally too worried about Pod as far as I can see.

To be frank, there were more ways than the two you stated. You were just focused so hard on how "bad" you'd look just for having that role -- and again, no interaction with the town players. Just bypassed that entirely.

But hey, you at least tried it your way. We all know how that turned out.

@Mown:

Concerning: "Sure, I didn't actually expect it to work on any level, I even said as much in the chat. But I don't believe I had anything to lose by doing so either."

Misdirection and deception by just talking with the town is 100% better than outting yourself easily the way you did. But that's my opinion.

I'm breaking my word to say a few things:
I'm the one who told Elij to come out swinging.
He presented the option of not using his ability until one of us came under fire.
Your criticism should be addressed to me, not him.
Did Zinger ever post the QT thread?

Also, please realize we're playing in a very different time zone from most of you.
It's common for me, at least, to go to sleep and wake up to find the game advanced by several pages.
Being only 1 hr apart, I imagine the experience is similar for Elij.
We don't have the luxury to think that we can always come back in time to make the lynch when one of us come under immediate fire.
The risk that players were going to realize Elij was LotP was very high, and it was unlikely that he'd be around to defend himself when the time came around.
I was fairly sure that Pod would also have recharged the Daycop, and thus Elij would immediately be scanned and speed lynched.
We can't prevent that when we're asleep.

I read the QT. He's still the one that made the move though.

That being said, I'll repeat my last line that I said to him. At least you tried it your way, and we all know how that turned out.

I understand, I truly do, that you guys have your own logic that you feel justifies what you did. Truth be told, the game can be played in multiple ways. I just feel that there is no play worth outing so many of your members so easily when you can play the game the old fashioned way.

After all, I lost Nicol Bolas and ended up with Thallid. I had to entertain myself by immersing myself in a mafia game -- by arguing with others to convince them of my points. etc etc

But, again, to each their own.

*Shrug* I had waited since the last time this mafia game failed to start to play DRS.
I was reasonably annoyed when I didn't get the chance.

Well of course. I'm sure many were reasonably annoyed. I mean I lost a cool role block role and kill ability that required some maneuvering to obtain. Do you think I enjoyed having Thallid?

But don't get me wrong. Despite the "setback" I had with my card, I was still able to play mafia. By leaps and bounds. That's more than I can say for all of the mafia team and most of the town. What was "your" excuse? (Your being not you specifically Story since, as I mentioned earlier, you contributed way more than the other mafia members did. It's this lack of contributing that helped with the downfall of the mafia.)

Storyteller really does put into words a sentiment I had been ignoring. Its really easy to say why didnt you sit back and wait, when you're in, or near enough to the primary timezone. I stay up stupid late on key days to try avoid this, and still find the game has advanced several pages while I was sleeping. I dont get to be reactive to game flow, because game flow happens when Im sleeping.

Give me a line of play.
None of this wishy washy "I would have tried to fool everyone with who knows what for I don't know what purpose, but I'm sure it could have worked out" stuff.

Another. Line. Of. Play.

claim mafia, vote for yourself

probably wouldn't have worked of course but I stopped following once I died so I have no idea what y'all are talking about anyway so who knows

I already did. You're just too stuck in your own view to really open up the possibilities in your mind.

Again, no one viewed you as scummy. Not hardcore like how PP as being viewed due to the killing roles. You could have easily stayed in the shadows, like I have been saying, and NOT OUTED YOURSELF SO EASILY.

I cannot stress that enough. All you had to do is not do what Eli/Story did. At least they had a major benefit to be gained ***if*** it worked. You claiming a card you know is owned by someone else in the game? You might as well just tell town at the beginning you are mafia and get it over with.

I'm serious. You mentioned to Zinger, or me I forget, that you would be effectively a vanilla mafia with no night kill. So what? Did you forget how to just post in the game and talk to people? It'd be a grindy game, but you could at least attempt to get others to view you as "not as scummy as that other guy" and hope that we keep mislynching over and over. Hell, JaC was dead so there was no way Rubik would have an investigation to just throw at you like it was candy. And bear in mind the only reason we had an investigation used in our scenario was because YOU CLAIMED MY CARD.

Were you in a horrible position? Hell yes you were. Doesn't mean you need to make a literally bad play and out yourself so easily. Buckle down for a game of attrition and try to win. Or don't. You can just give up too.

Point is, there were many different paths you could have taken. Many. And all you had to do was not out yourself the way you did. So, Mown, that's the line of play. A line of play which can splinter into many others all depending on how people interact with you.


And whoever menti -- Eli, not being on the primary timezone ***does not matter***. Town was in no way super aggressive about ending days or anything. People would post, huge discussions would break out between Alt and I, and people would come by a day later and post their comments. Are you at a "disadvantage" not being able to respond right away at times? Sure. But that doesn't mean you were literally playing with a hand tied behind your back. All you had to do was play, which you didn't. Your post count in the game compared to say, PP, is similar despite PP living longer than you. Do you know what that tells me? Aside from the heavy lurking? Well, lurking in general is all that tells me. I mean, all I can recall from the game is you coming into D1 real late and saying "oh hey stuff is happening i'm here btw". Then I recall somewhat near the end of D1, thanks to your ability, you going, "I'm on the same side as KoD wooohooo." Then D2 was just one vote post (obv). And D3 was you being sentenced to death because of what happened. And all you posted was just nonsensical sillyness (for obvious reason). At no point, as far as I am concerned, did you ***play*** mafia outside of just using your role to win (again, Zinger is 100% correct about you guys relying too heavily on your roles -- even Mown can't fathom just interacting with other players and trying to steer them wrong).

Oh and just for completeness-sake, out of the four of you playing mafia I'd rank you guys as something like: 1. PP 2. Story 3. Mown 4. Eli

The reason I place PP as being the most important mafiate (I say this tongue in cheek) is due to his willingness to break his diehard playstyle of lurking in order to not die right away on D1 thereby robbing you guys of the ability to kill. To be extremely fair to PP and blunt, PP went out of his way to get heat off of himself by actually contributing thereby moving the lynch target away from him. Yes, he eventually went back to lurking hard like he likes to do, but town was so wrapped up in other things (I know I was), that focusing on PP just because he wasn't contributing as much as others (somtimes just as much as others like US) didn't seem productive to me. But still, on top of actually getting the lynch away from him, he was the last one to die on your team and only because we had enough info to pretty much assume that PP's role was the mafia role trying to hit Rubik over and over. The rest of you fell dead due to, in all honesty, misplays (that's the best word I can use to describe how I feel about your decisions that ended your lives).

Story I place at second just because he did interact with us way more than the rest of you did. It was unfortunate that he came up with the zerg plan and went through with it with Eli as it did seal your fate. Yes, I understand why you guys felt like doing it, but, and this is again directed at Eli, I feel you were literally just too paranoid without any factual basis from the other players to go on (not like you gave us any chance to field what we thought was doing on with D1 before you slammed D2 shut in our faces thereby alerting us to your alignment along with Story).

Mown I place in third just because of a bad call to claim a card he knew someone else (that was town) had while the day cop was still around. As I said, no one really viewed him as scummy (I'm sure Alt made passing comments about entertaining Mown as scum, but Alt was my BFF as far as viewing someone as scummy so I have to disagree with anything Mown (or someone else backing him up) have to say. I truly do feel that had he just interacted with us more he could have accomplished more rather than falling flat on his face dead.

And Eli I've already explained. You may not have came up with the plan (as story has said), but going through with it rather than just making more posts is something I see as not in your favor for your gameplay as mafia.

And the four of you don't get me wrong. This is just how I honestly feel about your gameplay overall. You may not like it, but that is fine. I don't have an issue, per se, with ballsy plays like Eli/Story tried to do, but I would rather tend on the cautious side than going full HAM without a backup plan (whatever it may be). And Mown's play is something I would never consider unless you literally need town to mislynch one more time AND there is no instant day cop investigation on board (something already known to you guys in that game).

This pretty much concludes my views.

Er...we had a backup plan.

I mean it failed, but we had one. We mindslaved thallid onto me. We didnt know it was town only, but dont pretend we didnt plan for my death.

Also in regard to Mown, At that point essentially every role action we had made, had been hard countered or failed. In a game with no vanilla roles, having the majority of our powers fall short completely drains enthusiasm. Mown didnt make a long play gambit focused on tricking everyone, because he had reached a level of apathy caused by the constant downturns. Put simply, he didnt really care anymore.

You keep telling me Im paranoid, and you used a votelog. Go back and look at the full picture, the part where the information is openly shown that voting ended after me. The role was in the open, and players were aware of it. Lets say I cruised. Rubik would either voteblock me, or investigate me. So at this point, Im either moot, or revealed as mafia. At that point, sure I could have slammed the day shut. But at this point a while day would have passed with say, Alt handing out kills (Remember, at that point in the game we had no concept that Alt gave a kill out in spite of being lynched. And that he could easily give it to himself. We did know the role existed since we had it originally. Shutting day down, stopped daycop and in theory shut down Alt from handing out night kills to stop me.)

I think the main thing rubbing us the wrong way, is that you're being a butt. You impacted the game in no meaningful way and are sitting in a position of victory telling us everything we did was wrong, and we played bad.


I said at this point a lot.