Give me a reasonable line of play in that situation which lets me win the game. If not, I stand by my decision, given what information I had. In reality, I'm pretty sure I had no actual line of play, short of mind control, extortion or bribery.

Lord of the Pit and Taniwha had no activated abilities, and Reya Dawnbringer, Shahrazad, Seer's Vision and Mindslaver all had 1 charge, half of which were day actions. Which means he had a 50% chance to be really likely to win, 35% chance to win before anyone would reasonably have the chance to do anything against it, and a 20% chance of winning immediately. Evil Twin on the right target would also qualify.

In retrospect, I still think Elijin made the right decision, although I don't think it could ever actually work out, since Fallen Ideal is effectively an immortal hard-counter, as long as its owner doesn't screw up by putting it on a scum member.

on Scrambleverse: there's chaos, and then there's chaos. there were available options that would have sated my desire to cause a mess without, you know, being that. for instance, "all targets are chosen at random tonight". that'd be a nice weird smokescreen to try to protect us if a power role pops up and I need to deflect the mafia. or if you want to get crazier, "each player with a night ability activates it tonight with a random target. this doesn't cost them a charge." you could even have either of those as a trigger that goes off when I get targeted, so that I don't actually control the chaos either. it didn't have to be "invalidate every other player's input on the card they would most enjoy playing as". as you say, the game is about choice, and it seems like a bad call to give one player the power to nullify everyone else's choices, especially given that the strategically best play was to do so immediately for information and mafia-sabotage. and especially if you're going to actively make the self- and mafia-aligned roles stronger than the town ones.

One of the things I took away from zingers post is that we're silly for not anticipating the game he made.

I have never encountered a role with power levels seen in this game, and have never encountered voteblocking. So its rather absurd to say I should have anticipated them. Plus the bit about how Rubik could be countered is so filled with hindsight/modsight that its just blatantly insulting.

I'm sorry you feel that way. No insult is meant by it.

Voteblocking is a pretty standard ability where I come from, but even if you are not familiar with the ability I think it is equally absurd to assume you are unstoppable.

I don't think you're silly for not anticipating my game. I do think the Mafia team relied heavily on their abilities to win the game for them. I am looking back through the thread and I fail to see anywhere where Mafia even really attempted to steer the town in the wrong direction with WIFOM or gambits, except for Mown's gambit to claim Thallid (which, I don't see how you ever thought that would be a good idea?). At the end of the day the Town was playing this game, the Mafia wasn't, really. It looks to me like during the Day you were just sitting around waiting for your next chance to kill someone at Night.

I'm not trying to insult you. If you want to feel cheated out of a win because I gave you powerful roles that you never imagined could be countered, well, I don't know how to talk you out of feeling that way.

Actually, if he had wound up with any of the roles that had no activated abilities 15377 would have lost the ability to win by "Having 0 charges on all your activated abilities," because he would have none, and would have to survive to the end of the game.

As for the rest of what you said, I'm honestly speechless. I disagree entirely when you say your hands were tied and that your only option was to go on full frontal kamikaze attack. To say you only had one option in a game that could have unfolded a million different ways depending on what people say and how people interact with each other is unfathomable, really. Again I say I feel Mafia relied too heavily on their roles to do the talking for them.

Personally, I would have claimed Mindslaver and tried to make altimis look like scum for hiding role information that didn't really need to be hidden as much as he said it did. Would that have worked? I don't know. The game didn't go that direction.

I'm sorry you feel like your choices were limited this game.

I dont feel cheated out of the win. I just think its lousy that its being implied I should have seen things coming which I've never encountered in mafia before. Also if you remember, in the QT I did ponder about whether town would have something just as broken to counter me, and I did during N1 suggest we get WIFOM-y. It wasnt workable because Rubik survived the night and would just investigate me.


Something I was wondering about during game, which didnt end up mattering. If Mindslaver had targeted someone who wasnt using their ability that night, would it force activate it on the mindslaver target? Or just waste the mindslaver charge to be voting only?

That makes so much sense, doesn't it, after spending all of D1 arguing over whether or not Altimis should reveal the role with Mown supporting him not revealing the whole way cuz it was his original role?

True. Hey, i DID give you the Mafia MVP.

I guess some perspective on how powerful roles might be is important. I will consider designing a system to measure that for my next game. If you think your role is uber powerful but in actuality, compared to others it isn't quite as game breaking as you think, then that would skew your play for sure.

I have a history in game design of designing complex roles. Lord of the Pit is actually rather tame, by some of my standards. Actually, the part about your role that to me was potentially game breaking was your second ability, not your first. If it were me I would have played uber pro Town and bussed my fellow mafiates just to survive to Day 7 and auto win right there.

It would not force activate the other player.

No, it doesn't make sense after having supported altimis all of Day 1. I'm saying I would have bandwagoned against altimis ON Day 1. altimis basically gave Mown the tools to make him look uber scumy, and instead of running with those scizzors he decided to try and support altimis instead.

And that makes so much sense when Mown was the one who first went to altimis saying that the role shouldn't be revealed, right?


Once again, this totally works when town has a (supposedly) revealed daycop who also happened to have (unclaimed) regen ability, and an (unclaimed) recharge.
IDK, but I give the people of this forum more credit than to think that they aren't going to bother to check the alignment of the dude that will make or break the game before day 7.

When Lord of the Pit fell into Mafia's hand's I thought for sure they would just try to coast their way to victory on Day 7. I actually remember thinking "Oh ****, Town's **** now." Lol. Then was surprised when going that route wasn't even considered in the mafia QT.

Rubik wasn't immortal. In fact, the moment it was known that he was a Day Cop that was being protected, I don't know why the Mafia didn't just unload on him right there. You guys had two kills at your disposal.

Oh, had Evil Twin hit Rubik instead of the Seer... lol THAT would have spelled certain doom for the Town, for sure.

Because Evil Twin was used before the results to PP's kill revealed that Rubik had been protected, but you knew that. So why bother even mentioning that?
And on top of that, as far as I'm concerned (others are free to correct me), games generally don't come with day cops with their own shields who also happen to voteblock.
When we saw that Rubik failed to die N1, we were obviously going to assume there was another doc role and go around looking for it.

Jack of all Trades is a fairly common role in games, actually, and they usually have a wide range of abilities.

His Day Cop ability was not unlimited. Nor was his regeneration. Nor was his voteblock. And he couldn't do them all at the same time.

This is a game where assumptions get you killed.

Yeah? So do you think that you have a jack-of-trades on your hands whenever you see your mafia kill fail on a cop?
Well, I'll bet you'll find way more games with a cop and a doc than games with jack-of-trades cop and doc.

It was unlimited for as long as Pod existed. Guess who we killed first?

F*** it. I'm being a douche bag here.
You took the time to run this game while busy out there fighting fires, and all you're getting from me is hate.
I'm sorry. This is the last post you'll see from me here.

I consider it, sure, but I am not suggesting you should have assumed one way or the other what you were dealing with.

Another interesting play would have been to use Evil Twin on the birthing pod, to give yourselves unlimited uses of abilities.

That would have quickly become broken if Evil Twin copied birthing pod's abilities, then recharged his kill, and continued to just kill and acquire as many abilities as he wanted throughout the game. Oh, the possibilities. lol Can you imagine it? Night 1, kill/copy birthing pod. Night 2, recharged self. Night 3, kill/copy Rubik. Night 4, recharged. Night 5, Kill/copy Elijin to make it look like you are a good guy taking out a mafia member while keeping the Day 7 win ability within your team. Night 6, recharge. rinse, repeat. lol

I don't think you're being a douche. You're upset that the odds were staked against you and that the mod is basically saying "Well, you guys got overconfident and should have known better." Which, is not really what I am saying but i see why you perceive it that way. I'd be upset too. Your concerns are legitimate.

But at the end of the day I don't know what to tell you to satisfy them. Yes it was a powerful game. Could I have better prepared you for the kind of roles you would be up against? Maybe. I'll try harder to make sure my next game has power levels understood from the get go.

I just don't want you to walk away from this thinking that I am telling you that it's your own fault for not anticipating my setup. That's not what I am saying at all. I am just saying you guys had a lot more things you could have done to sway the game in your favor than to just rely on your abilities to win the game for you, and that you should never assume in a game of deception that you have all the cards. That's all.

Thanks for the apology though. I do hope you at least enjoyed the game.

Has a game ever run until day 7 on NGA?

And even if it did....at 1 lynch and 1 NK per cycle, thats 2 players standing day 7. Which means the power is moot because if it reaches day 7 with 1 town and 1 mafia, mafia has won anyway? My point here is that in Mafia's hand the day 7 win was moot. It is only relevant to town.

No, not on NGA, but given that there were two revival roles and some protective roles I didn't feel it was unreasonable. Hey we made it to Day 5 with 8 people still alive, so, the numbers were there.

I don't think there was any chance of letting the twovote killer survive until day 7.
It's too risky a role to allow to live too late in the game.

With a cop, you can simply ignore what they say, with the twovote killer, he's actually MORE dangerous that late as a town than as a mafia. As whenever he votes (a nonmafia) the mafia player can copy that vote. Sure that might only work as a clincher, but after he votes ANYBODY becomes the hammer, and that's too powerful an ability to allow to live so late in the game.