@KoD, whether or not Fruit is being honest about his claim doesn't mean we shouldn't lynch him as a scum suspect.

And what's this? I haven't been scumhunting all game? That's laughable. Just yesterday I gave a detailed post analyzing every living player in the game.

All this discussion is a bunch of smoke and mirrors. KoD you said it yourself Niklor is unlikely to be scum because he helped assist in the Numbers lynch. We should be looking at those who did not help assist in the Numbers lynch, primarily.

At this point I just want the Day to end (in a lynch) so that we can stop debating the stuff we already know and instead debate the new info we don't yet have (the flip).

@ Rubik, how much longer is the Day?

It ends Nov 29, 2015, 1:02 am pacific.

10 days from the start of day exactly.

Votes:

Fruit: GobO_Scarlet, Niklor, Garren_Windspear, Ragnarokio (4)
GobO_Scarlet: Zinger2099 (1)
Niklor: KoD (1)
No vote: Fruit, NeoSilk (2)

Day wont' end until some time during the 29th IIRC.

@Fruit:



When I read the bolded part, that means, to me, that if your ability succeeds in going through because you will have successfully protected them. What would cause you to fail protecting them would be if you are: role blocked, prevented from targeting (like Rag's ability), or a kill power with higher rating bypasses your protection rating.

If it was as you said, then I would expect it to read something like, "If you successfully protect your target AND a kill was made against them, then they will be ..." That's what I would expect it to read as if it is as you say Fruit. I would check with the mod just to be absolutely certain it works the way you are thinking and no other way.

@Zinger:

I never said all game. I referenced Scar because he made an accurate post in regards to how you have acted for a majority of today. Rather than consider role interactions and the possibilities they imply, you were too focused on tunneling on me which caused you to swing back and forth on how to convince people to lynch Scar. Your attitude has been purely reactionary rather than proactive.

And yes, it does matter if Fruit is being honest. Your knee-jerk response to me, concerning Fruit's claim, is that he could be lying to avoid being lynched. Ok, we resolve that by having him prove whether he has the ability to avoid being lynched by way of his ability. Your response is now it doesn't matter if he's being honest or not (which clearly it mattered before when you brought up him possibly lying). If he's able to prove, by use of a role interaction, that he is town to someone like Rag, then that is worth having as it avoid us lynching someone incorrectly and gains us a valuable interaction linking two players (Fruit/Rag). As it stands, Fruit isn't the only scum suspect as there are plenty of candidates that affect how the field is viewed.

As for Niklor, I made assumptions based not on role information but on how events fell the day Numbers was lynched. Assumptions that, as I noted when I first made them at the beginning of the day, could be wrong. Rag is by far the most likely out of the three of you to be town. It doesn't necessarily mean he is town beyond a shadow of doubt, and that applies to you and Niklor as well. The key thing here for my attention on Niklor is that he, as I noted already, is not connected to anything except his vote on Numbers. No role interactions, about the same post content as Garen and Fruit -- less actually since Fruit and Garen have provided quality (rather than quantity) in the form of claims which vastly help town with the information. We know nothing about Niklor.

You want to end the day even though we have plenty of time to discuss new info that pops up (like Fruit's abilities that we can use)? Yeah, such a townie move. Let's not use all the time available to discuss as much of the possibilities and paths available to us with the info we have and may yet gain (such as possibly gaining Niklor's claim if he's forced into it -- and he should be).

Am I seriously the only one who has a scum read on Zinger?

Nope, my ability has to stop a kill for the second part to work.

Well bummer.

Truthfully I still prefer Niklor over you given that you've been providing info even if it doesn't help you as much as I thought it would. For example, you could have been more vague with your protection ability than you are being (or even lied about different parts of it for that matter).

Correction, KoD, we know nothing about Fruit. He has made a claim, that doesn't mean we know anything concrete about him.

We know Niklor helped lynch scum. That is something concrete that we know about Niklor.

You talk about scumhunting like it means "get people to claim stuff, believe those claims, and then look at those who haven't claimed with suspicion". Rather, it's you who isn't scumhunting if all you are doing is discussing different ways people can use their abilities to help confirm or deny their claims.

I still have a major scum read on you. I'm having to ignore that scum read because of evidence to the contrary (which may still prove false). This doesn't mean you are behaving any less scummy just because I've had to accept the possibility that my read on you is way off.

Fruit hasn't done anything pro town all game. Even claiming as he has toDay isn't a pro town move and if he uses his ability it only will help to confuse the town more and give Mafia an edge. Yet he is still Gung how about using such an ability. This is behaviour we can analyze. This is scumhunting. Not that **** you've been doing "if x player uses x ability tonight on y player then we can confirm he was telling the truth about his ability and thus we should believe he is town", That's not scumhunting. That's poor logic at best and misdirection at worst.

I like this stuff about you. Why couldn't you do that in regards to the way I acted in D1/2

Nah, I get it.

Sure, why not. On Day 1 you helped a known scum (Numbers) push a successful lynch against TB who flipped Town. On Day 2, in which the rest of us Lynched Numbers, you abstained from voting. Source: Day 1 and Day 2 end of day votecount.

This is what we know about your voting behaviour from Days 1 and 2. From my perspective it leads credence to the idea that you and KoD are scum, but Garren's testimony makes me question that so....

Fruit made a claim. Just like how Neo made a claim, Scar made a claim, and I made a claim.

What's your point? Originally you wanted to murder me despite my claim, then Scar claimed and you still wanted to murder me, but decided to go after Scar even though all Scar did was claim (similar to how Fruit has claimed).

The key difference between what we're all claiming and you guys that voted Numbers (minus Rag) is that our claims are laying the foundation for a lot of analysis for what is potentially going on in the game. These claims will lead to finding scum.

Case in point: Scar claimed saying that I have to be town because of his ability. That has linked Scar and me so that if you think one of us is scum, the other is bound to be scum as well (likewise the opposite is true).

Case in point: Neo claimed an ability despite his lack of contribution until today (much like Fruit). Neo has claimed that his ability to kill will kill scum or result in his own death. The connections that can be drawn from Neo's ability is valuable in proving he and another person are town or for catching scum (and still proving he is town).

Case in point: Garen claiming his abilities (and not claiming fully what his day kill ability did). Upon taking a request to use his day kill ability and used it on Scar only to find out that Scar has not killed any town players. Obviously he must be truthful about the rest of his abilities if he was truthful about that particular one.

Three different situations where these interactions have made valuable connections for us to analysis and plan with/around. Fruit, by virtue of being the only remaining player with nothing to look at like the rest of us, became a convenient lynch (quite literally to the point where it is obvious that either his partner wants to bus him if Fruit is scum, or both the remaining scum piled onto Fruit as well). Then he claimed his abilities. You contest that we don't know anything about him and he could be lying about his claim (or that the truthfulness of his claim doesn't matter); however, much like those listed above, the claim definitely matters. Especially if Fruit chooses to live. You've chosen to view Fruit as scum if he does use his ability (which then means you can't view myself and Scar as scum even though you keep telling us how much you do view us as scum which means Fruit can't be scum). I, however, don't intend to view him as scum.

Particularly because throughout this whole process the main point that has mattered has been information gathering. Fruit's claim gives us information to work with which he didn't have to comply with. Hell, he could have just saved himself and not said a word while town got someone else lynched. Then he could have done whatever the next day to justify his role in some form which would deter us (like lying and saying he is unlynchable -- shown the previous day -- and can only be night killed). Instead Fruit has offered us information which is townie.

And when it comes to information, there is one person in this entire game that has not given us any. That person is Niklor -- the person you are trying to defend by telling me we know something concrete about him in the form of he voted a known Mafiate. So? Niklor even made note himself earlier in this day that, and I'm paraphrasing, just because people voted Numbers doesn't mean they should be given a pass completely. And he's right. Just because you guys voted Numbers and got him lynched doesn't mean you're town. As I've mentioned several times today and as Niklor has mentioned, there are varying degrees of how to view you lot. In regards to Rag, he is the most townie out of you three. Rag used an ability, claimed to have done so, and caught out Numbers for killing. The known fact that Numbers had killed eventually led to his lynch. So Rag earns the most townie points there. Niklor comes up next as the 2nd most townie out of you guys since Numbers wouldn't have been lynched had Niklor not brought up that Numbers should be lynched for having killed and got people (Rag and you) to pile back onto Numbers. Finally there is you Zinger. Out of the three you're the least townie of the group since you bandwagoned onto Numbers to lynch him. While this does mean Numbers could have lived if you hadn't done that, that also means that if you were scum and did this, then you (to use Niklor's words describing the situation) could have earned major townie points for that action.

Pretty much all this means is that all of you that voted Numbers are not cleared as town for having done so (except Rag earns the best rep here for his use of an ability that condemned Numbers).

===========================================================================================

Scar made a point of believing all claims until given a reason not to trust them. As it stands, we have all claims except Niklor's. Since we're going to possibly be in LyLo tomorrow, it makes sense to have his claim least something pop up that we can't be prepared for. It's also important because what if he's scum and doesn't want to claim any of his abilities? Letting him remain silent on them does town no good.

You may be satisfied with a lynch and not having to talk anymore or gather info, but I won't be satisfied until we've covered everything worth discussing. That includes discussing Niklor's role since we've all claimed and he hasn't.

@Niklor: Will you claim for us or will you avoid claiming today?

You're grasping dude.
D1 I was the one who pushed for vote count analysis and it ended with me, KoD, numbers all voting for same guy. I didn't push anything either. I voted him for role fishing.
D2 I abstained indeed. But that goes both ways. I could've saved numbers without any problems.

I'm not grasping at anything. You asked me to analyze the facts based on your voting patterns and I did.

I'd be grasping if I said this was definite proof that you were scum, but that I did not say.

We were discussing facts versus conjecture. Fact: You voted TB along with Numbers. Fact: You didn't support the Numbers lynch.

Conclusions to be drawn from those facts is up to the individual. I just listed a few facts.

Fact: Scar voted TB first before anyone else and long before TB claimed.

Fact: It was I who pushed TB's lynch. Numbers supported me. Scar's vote was in place long before hand.

Fact: It wasn't the "rest of us" who voted for Numbers. It was only 3 of you while the other players in the game were voting for other people.


So to be entirely accurate, you're wrong in what you said. Scar didn't help anybody lynch TB. It was I who intentionally wanted TB dead followed by Numbers helping me to lynch TB, and our actions directly helped Scar to lynch TB. Way you portrayed it makes it sound like Numbers was pushing TB's lynch and Scar decided to join him.

Your facts only support what I've said. I don't understand what conclusions you're trying to draw here?

Other than you running to scar's aid in much the same way you aided numbers

Well, I won't say I'm surprised you don't understand, but I'll try to guide you nonetheless.

Think of it like a story. You have to start at the beginning and read to the end. Before we start the story, let's look at the story you wrote: "Sure, why not. On Day 1 you helped a known scum (Numbers) push a successful lynch against TB who flipped Town. On Day 2, in which the rest of us Lynched Numbers, you abstained from voting." In your story, Numbers pushed the lynch on TB and Scar merely helped. Later, your story that everyone lynched Numbers while Scar "didn't". The errors with your story were pointed out in the previous post I did (and lightly mentioned in this recap).

As for the actual story (which was said in the previous post): Scar did not "help" Numbers push TB's lynch. Scar decided long before it came to it that he would vote for TB. Much later, KoD made the switch/push for TB's lynched followed by Numbers's supporting KoD.

Or, in short, you're wrong and need to actually read what happened instead of spouting lies.

Afaik scar voted on a town wagon day 1 and didn't vote on the mafia wagon day 2, and that's a negative voting record (though not terrible).

I don't really care though, scar's probably town because of yours and garen's claims.

You ever heard the phrase "timing matters"? It's a fact Scar was voting the same person that I and Numbers were voting. That is not being disputed.

The important part, which Zinger spun into a lie, is that Scar never pushed TB's lynch. Scar never supported Numbers's push for TB's lynch.

As the timing of events go, Scar first established voting TB long before others even went after TB. Numbers and I were squarely on you Rag. Then TB went off the deep end which drew my attention heavily onto him and after he claimed it drew Numbers. This is vastly different from "Scar helped". Scar was already there. We just happened along and got him lynched due to Scar already being there.

I'm not the type to pick apart another person's words, zinger said scar had a weak voting record and it was indeed weak. I don't care if he used the word push, I agree with the idea I felt he was conveying.

Analysis doesn't suit you then since the voting record in itself isn't "weak". Clearly Zinger's intended point was to make Scar's voting look bad despite the fact that when Scar abstained he could just as easily participated in the vote to save Numbers's from ever being lynched by the three votes that accomplished. But that level of detail doesn't matter if you're not going to bother reading into the details.

Instead it's simple. They voted with scum, so they are scum.