The crucial element here is that Naga chimed in to protect KoD before we knew that players don't flip on death. He did so at the threshold of deadline, thereby dissuading me from the hammer, knowing full well that KoD wasn't lying, and knowing likewise that supporting KoD would mean the confirmation of a town player.

To me, this seems more daring than Jay pushing an uncertain wagon on Rag.


This is possible, but unlikely. I simply find it implausible that the contention between you and Darkstar was not the result of some orchestrated behavior. How else to explain the fact that two supposedly town players (insofar as you must be if Naga is scum) proposed to have made incompatible plays, with neither ever bothering to recant?

Either, then, Naga is extremely lucky and made a bold play without ever intending to capitalize on it (and, honestly, Naga has never previously struck as especially reckless); or else Jay, who is far more amenable to high-risk scenarios, capitalized on an unforeseen fortuitous result.



As I noted above, we have independent reasons to believe Naga's claim. Town benefits measurably more by you either 'confirming' me (the player proposed as the next-best lynch after you) or by you confirming Jay.

'Confirming' the player who attempted to save confirmed town is only a step or two above the 'cop' whose targets are all conveniently dead.

Yes? Jay subscribes (in part) to the KoDian school of bold endeavours.

KoD being alive would reduce the possible mislynches by a third. It's not like he's the sort of player to sit back and go quietly into the night.

The crucial element is that Naga suspected we wouldn't have flips since game start and said nothing until exactly deadline. Had we not got a bonus extension from Tevish, you would have lynched KoD.

Also here's an excerpt from Naga post dethy to strike you however:



Considering the whole point of dethy is to use the results to determine each players sanity and find the lying scum, seems pretty reckless to me to lie as town simply because you forgot a target.

In a matter of recklessness on my part, I failed to consider that this game of mafia might be interfered with my trip to the cottage today. I'm leaving in a few minutes and won't have internet access until Monday. I'm really sorry guys, I don't know why this didn't come to mind as I've been planning for this trip for a week.

@Tevish: Is there any way I can be replaced? Maybe someone who died could take over in my stead?

Alternatively a phase extension so you can still participate would be nice maybe

I just reread D1 to confirm, and this happened after KoD claimed his role confirmed his alignment. It would be pretty absurd for Naga to not chime in considering he was clearly around and talking. That was NAI at best to me.
And you weren't dissuaded from hammering it because you were already sitting on KoD and stepped back when Naga defended him.

Replacement would be exceedingly difficult given what it took for the game to fill, but if there are no objections I'm up for extending the day phase arbitrarily for Naga's return.

If today is any indication of how the rest of the weekend will go for me work wise I certainly won't mind the extension. I was gonna try to get a long post going tonight but after working 11 hours straight I'm not feeling it.

yea better to do that when you're rested lol

doesn't mean we should try to discuss stuff in the meanwhile though

I can replace if the day doesn't end before next Thursday.

*we shouldn't

gonna be a bit but this morning but I'll try rereading the thread
honestly I don't expect to find much more new stuff but maybe it might help me express my case on sky better

Naga said he will have internet access by Monday, so it will prolly end then

Town still has majority even without his vote, so I don't think a replacement is crucial tbf

or... we... can just sit here and wait... I guess...

I mean...obviously? If KoD hadn't already claimed, it wouldn't be possible for anyone to verify that claim. That's kind of how causation works.

No-one knew Naga's role, therefore no-one knew that he knew KoD wasn't lying. Scum Naga could have stayed silent, in which cause KoD would have died barring the extension. Instead, as you just conceded, Naga dissuaded me from causing KoD's lynch. But none of these behaviors are especially well-motivated from scum.

This is extremely dishonest of you. It didn't come up until KoD made a claim. And KoD made that claim exactly at deadline. Naga had no motivation, even as town, to share that information for free.

As for the other bit, that's reckless tomfoolery, not a high-risk plan. Those are materially different in form.

Naga has every motivation, as town, to reveal that flips won't occur. It's a crucial piece of information that will shape how town proceeds in the game. Not revealing it is basically hamstringing town a day, as most people look for the flips to really kick off the game. Conversely, Naga has every motivation to not reveal it as scum unless it presents him in a good light.

As for the other bit, I was merely pointing out that both yours and Naga's actions can not be justified by the ends since neither of you would be aware of the extension, which changed the outcome of the events that transpired in the original deadline.

The outcome doesn't change either way. We find that fact out on Day 1. Unless town lynches for the flip (in a sense more concrete than usual, presumably as a result of some interaction), then Naga as town wants to hold his cards to his chest.


This doesn't hold. On the contrary, because we didn't expect an extension, our actions ought to be viewed from the lens of our expectation that day was at end.

But let's talk about you. You're happy to obfuscate by deflecting conversation to Naga, but you still haven't presented your own arguments, nor have you addressed mine vis-a-vis you.

From what I understood from the exchange Naga only confirmed that death flips were unlikely, ergo KoD prolly meant flipping in another way. I don't see how he cleared the possibility of KoD lying.

And why in heavens Naga softing information from his role was more relevant to you than KoD literally screaming he could announce his alignment in thread? I feel like the logical play here is prioritizing trusting the latter since it's a hard alignment confirmation while the former was an ambiguous one.

Hell, in a long term play Naga not saying anything there would've backfired, right? If he claimed later on and were scum people would bring it back up and question why he didn't say anything back then. Him popping in in that mess still NAI to me.

Pretty bold statement coming from somebody who was just trying to accuse people of being dishonest. The fact is Naga immediately putting out his suspicions that flips will not occur greatly changes the game's landscape. Town becomes more scrutinizing of public displays, and are much more guarded with ability usage. KoD, for example, would more likely have saved his shot for more certain conditions. Without CL's death and KoD's mod confirmation, Rag might not have been lynched. To say we would be in this exact game state right now regardless of when Naga revealed is just delusional.



It does hold, because that's exactly what I'm doing. You're trying to use the bonus time to grab at town pants for you and Naga. Naga "chimed in to protect KoD" exactly at deadline. With no time left for any changes to be made, there's no protection to be had. Naga gets to look like an attempt was made, however. Similarly you unvoted after deadline because of "dissuading [you] from the hammer" but without an extension you are locked as the tie breaking vote condemning KoD. Before deadline KoD tells you that his ability will confirm his alignment and this is not enough for you to remove your vote. That is the most telling thing in the final minutes of original deadline.

As for the rest I'm not particularly keen on defending myself. Seems like a waste of time considering I've been overtly scummy on purpose this entire game. And presenting arguments was more an exercise on showing how nobody is currently off the table. Since I'm not gunning to convince anybody in any one direction I haven't placed much importance on doing so. I can quick break it down for you though.

Ex is highly circumstantial. He's still an unsolved component of the Doc-Roleblock claim, as it's only a problematic targeting system if Naga was the NK. Since Dark has died town we know he was honest on his half, but that doesn't preclude the possibility that Ex is lying and was the one that tried to kill Naga. With no actual roleblock from scum!Ex, there is no paradoxical resolution.

Naga is suspect for the sheer amount of gate keeping he is doing on the information front. What is being taken as public information is only done so at Naga's word, but we have nothing to verify his alignment and accuracy of the information he's presenting to begin with. His interactions don't exactly exonerate him. Nor does the doc interaction since we don't have a steady kill reference. As Ex pointed out, a poisoner would give the illusion of a successful doc save while not actually being truth. Further KoD was a far more prominent kill target, being mod confirmed town already.

As for you, you are playing classic Sky deep wolf. You content is light surface reads. Your votes come in late in deadline and more often than not follow the trend. You've made several subtle (and some blatant) grabs at town pants for yourself. Now that it is MyLo you've picked up the pace, but in doing so you are starting to show contradictory stances (such as where you said yesterday I've correctly sized up Dark v Ex and that there must be a lie in there, but today you are asserting that I should be primary scumspect because of Dark v Ex from yesterday).

@Exlight: KoD failed to distinguish (for me) that he meant independent, non-flip confirmation. Naga's "soft information" clued me in that KoD meant something concrete.

Apart from that aspect, Naga tried to protect a player who proposed to be mechanically confirmable as town. KoD didn't make his claim until one literal minute to deadline, ergo Naga had every excuse to propose that he didn't have time to comment on flips. That's why I struggle to motivate Naga's behavior from a scum perspective – he simply had no reason to contribute given that he assumed that Day was at an end.

(But I actually would agree that it's not indicative if we aren't at deadline.)