Our definitions of meaningful seem to be slightly unaligned but I'll bite. Were I going to vote I would most likely drop it at Ambar's feet. I never bought into the original reason that that wagon started (non-committal commentary on day 1 oh my) but the hyper-defensive flailing that followed just pushed them deeper and deeper into a corner. I'm not making the vote as I still don't like the wagon (and Ambar's heading for the chopping block as is anyway) but at this juncture Ambar's death would probably provide the most information we're going to get this early on. No need to rush into it though - it'll come in it's own time.

As others thoughts MasterofDoom has pinged my radar a good couple of times. Maybe it's just the way he posts rubbing me wrong but he seems to be doing a whole lot of short posts that are either the equivalent of 'I agree with this' or random comments. He's coming off a lot like Popular Pariah except PP is bare faced in the fact that he isn't intending to contributing anything with MoD is trying really hard to look like he is.

Finally we have the unmissable spectacle that is KingofDominaria and 15377 trading hits on who can be the biggest blow-hard. Isn't really much to discuss what with the whole thing boiling down to 'I disagree with you - let's wrestle!' but I wouldn't be surprised if they were both townies just holding a massive grudge against each other. Mafia's probably laughing their arses off watching these two hold knives to each others throats and eating up a good third of the day.

Also if I have to start posting so does Scarlet. That you've said less then me up to this point is an achievement in and off itself. Get some words on the page already!

Well that is insightful. I had no idea Numbers was so gun-ho over my making a post over Ambar's comment about posting any reason when you vote. I thought the whole calling what I was arguing over moot would have been obvious since what I said towards Ambar can't be taken as a fact (likewise what Ambar said can't be taken as a fact as well). To clarify, it is strictly an opinion to some that posting any reason is good enough to vote whereas posting no reason (mainly in regards to D1 because, common, it is D1) may be better than posting any reason is an opinion of others as well.

That extremely short conversation had no place in my attack upon Ambar since it was never indicated in what I was upfront about when I first went after Ambar. Now, there was a line in Number's post. That my post only served to say that MoD is contributing while I continue to down play Ambar or something to that effect. I didn't have to "put down" Ambar or down play him or anything akin to that. Others already voiced the most obvious thing when Ambar went after Lilan. Voting someone because they are the third vote doesn't mean they are scum. I already know that. Others apparently know that. I have no reason to join in on assaulting Ambar's reasons for going after Lilan.

My one and only focus on Ambar the entire time I was voting him was strictly how I believed his one post made him look in my eyes. Nothing more.

Moving on, look at this latest post from Numbers.

Numbers


1 - The topic is Number's vote on MoD using "reasons" as the reason to vote him. Just so you are all on the same page with me when I start talking. As you can see, Numbers is asserting that my lack of responding to him for his vote on MoD is telling of me. At that point in time, what had occurred and what hadn't? I was already going after Ambar for what I felt was a valid reason. There's that. Also, up to this point in time, Numbers's had only gotten involved in the conversations by simply agreeing with Ambar and voting Lilan. He then moves his vote onto MoD while citing my post about reasons/no reasons voting that I made towards Ambar. Now, just to keep perspective in tact while speaking of this, the context of my post was in regards to Ambar speaking to Hello World's question.

Hello World


Ambar


KoD


And for further context:

MoD


In responding to Ambar, and seeking to give an example, I cited MoD's post about the blue eyes.

For those who may want to read these particular posts, MoD's can be found on Page 4 and the rest on Page 5 (viewed at 20 posts per page).


2 - I'm back on Numbers's post now where I was putting the colored numbers in it. I want you to take this chance to immediately read what follows after color=green]2[/color] in Numbers's post.

Have you? Ok, good. Since I already pulled the posts up, just above in the 1 section, we can refer to those. Numbers's is asserting that I am trying to portray MoD in a positive light, and that my not responding to him voting for MoD is "bad" or very telling of me. If you look at the posts though, the ones in question that I brought up, you'll see that Numbers's is [b]lying. Yes, lying. My post's only dealings with MoD is to use him as an example to show to Ambar what I am explaining. The post in no way tries to portray MoD in a positive light or negative light or any light for that matter. That post of mine was, since context matters, was partly in regards to Lilan (since Lilan was how that whole topic got started in the first place), but it was mostly just me disagreeing with Ambar's assertion as I had stated. As far as this goes, don't believe what Numbers is saying since he is actively lying.

3 - This is going to be short. Do you all remember when Numbers said that town try to clarify more than mafia scum since mafia don't want things clarified? Unlike Mr. Numbers here, I'm actively showing where I am coming from. Numbers is just being broad and, as it appears to me, lying. Hell, it took someone else (Confused) asking Numbers question to even bring out Numbers's (clarified) view of MoD.

The last part in Numbers's post is something I won't bother addressing since I never addressed what MoD has been doing previously as far as I can recall (we have a lot of posts and I believe I only referenced MoD the one time).

While we are here though, and to cut off a lane of attack for Numbers to use on me, I'll address MoD now. As can been seen, I'm not the only one not saying anything about MoD since Numbers definitely has a view of MoD. I'm sure everyone else, that has bothered to read, knows how MoD is acting and may have their own opinion of him. I won't lie. This is my first game here. Aside from the old players that I have sparred with many times before, I have never encountered MoD (or Garen). I don't know how MoD plays. I don't know if he is a newer player who is just anxious to get on with the game when it is getting stale (remember Ahlyis in Kittens Mafia 5 JaC? bwuahahaha). Or maybe he is just being obv obv scum ruining the game for his fellow friends.

Point is, I don't know. I never addressed MoD because of this.

What I will say is that I am definitely condemning Numbers for using MoD like this against me. He could have been upfront from the very beginning about his view of MoD as opposed to actively fighting with me over numerous pages over our opinions (or rather over my faulty thoughts that fall flat on their face and his solid, un-assaultable, fact based logic as I'm sure he views it). It took someone else other than me to get him to give his thoughts in regards to someone else that isn't even me in a detailed manner. And in the process what did we see? Well what did I see rather. I see Numbers making faulty connections (lying more or less) and seemingly setting up what looks like, to my eyes, a potential chain lynch of MoD and myself. Perhaps to be used later on in the game.

Either way, I'm utterly convinced Numbers is scum.

Surely this is town-on-town. Scum don't usually want to make themselves this conspicuous.

@my short posts: that's normal

Really MoD, it's null vs null. They both do this on a regular basis from what I remember, having had similar post wars with both in the past.

@HW: Well, I'm torn between the two atm. Lilans wagon originally picked up steam pretty quickly once Ambar hit the third vote, which makes it seem like a scum defensive wagon. However, that could just be nothing, and though Lilan is acting scummy, Rag is also a terrible townie usually, and it's hard to call it much more than possibly being a terrible townie.

I'd rather push a wagon back onto Rubik to be honest. He gave me strong scum vibes earlier and they haven't gone away. I forgot how much I dislike playing with people like Rag, Rubik, and Feebs though, because of how much they dedicate themselves to acting 'the same' no matter if they are scum or town, which in their case means acting scum all the time. Oh well, it is what it is.

I'm fine with ambar atm though, since at worst we'd be losing a vanilla townie, and still gain some decent info off of it regardless of how he turns up. It might even give some meaning to the JD vs KoD war.

@KoD:

1) You're missing some postage there KoD. Intentionally, undoubtedly, as you took the time to go dig up posts so there's little to no way you accidentally missed it. I explained in detail my thoughts on the third on wagon philosophy which illuminates my motivations behind the Lilan vote, which had you bothered to mention it would show that I wasn't simply agreeing with Ambar as you are trying to misrepresent.

2) If I said you were giving MoD a reach around and telling him what a great mafia player he was, I would agree that I was lying. But that's not what I said in the slightest. By using MoD has an example for your point, you present him as a like minded thinker and somebody who is in thick just as you are. However you then went on to completely invalidate any point you were trying to make, something you reiterate here in that what you said was just an opinion - thus highly debatable and ultimately an irrelevant post. Now there are no posts that serve zero purpose in mafia. Even random jibberjabber is intended to show presence and avoid being labeled a lurker. So if the intent of your post wasn't to make a point, as you say it's not by calling the entire subject matter moot, then the intent of your post lies in the subtext. Having been one of the more prominent posters you clearly weren't posting just to avoid being labeled a lurker. So you weren't posting for posting sake, nor were you making a direct point, so looking at the underlying effects of your post you have the MoD praise of comparison to yourself, and the Ambar downplay by virtue of disagreeing and trying to make him look the fool for his beliefs. You insist this isn't a praise of MoD because you were just trying to give weight to your completely irrelevant point and it's not an attack on Ambar because it's not the reason you stated when you voted Ambar yet you offer no other reason for creating that post nor do you actually show how you didn't do the things I said you did in it.

3) The name of the game is analyzing the other players behavior. Tell me then, KoD, why you think a townie like you're claiming to be would simply choose to ignore a player that is acting against what your experience tells you a townie should be doing, especially if its a new player to you. If it were somebody you knew tried and true, I could see you making an argument for ignoring them if you knew it was their MO. But new players you gotta get down and dirty with to feel them out. Unless, of course, you are getting a feel for them behind the scenes and would like to not draw attention to the scummy things they do. Oh and you forgot to mention I also addressed Lilan earlier. In fact I haven't not been forthright with anybody except for yourself, who I've already claimed to be acting in a manner to antagonize. It's funny how all the little pieces make a complete picture when you look at the grander scheme of things instead of trying to pick out bits and pieces to suit your needs.

1.) Alright, let's do some searching.

JD


So let me get this straight. You believe it is a decent enough reason to throw a vote out. You believe it is decent enough to gauge reactions off of. You believe it is a start for getting a feel for other players. More so than reaction trolling.

So, in short, you agree with Ambar? Because I don't see anything else. Sure, using the third wagon idea as a way to gauge a reaction from someone is something, but how exactly did that work out with Lilan hm? Lilan only made a small comment in regards to it just like you did with this post. Unlike yours, Lilan views it as a decent guideline post lynch. Course you're no longer voting Lilan. Ambar still is though. So what changed? Me I would imagine given how much you are trying to twist what has happened into what you would rather it actually be.


2.) Let's examine the one thing in this that matters.

JD


Perhaps in some alternate reality where I'm saying exactly what you are stating, sure. However, in the here and now that is completely false in it's entirety. Ambar simply stated any reason is better than no reason. I say to him that I disagree, and I go present to him an example of how any reason is not better than no reason at all.

The example is MoD's post where MoD, himself, states that, "The third vote is about as scummy as having blue eyes; not at all." Needless to say, he illustrates that with a vote on himself because "blue eyes."

Needless to say, in presenting his post as an example of how any reason is not better than no reason at all, I prove my point. That is the end of the point. You, however, are maintaining that I am presenting MoD as though he were like me. A like minded person. A person just as thick as I am. This is laughable at best. Deplorable at worst. Not only do I ****not**** present him as such (the rest of you can look at my post and judge whether or not I am taking it upon myself to say MoD is just like me and/or is being displayed in a "positive" light by me -- funny, I like how Numbers is switching around the words to go about how he would have me "describe" MoD), my post only, not that word only, to use his post to indicate my point. Nothing more.

So what you should stop doing is lying like you are Numbers because all you are trying to do is tie me into something that never happened.

3.)

Numbers


I assume this is in regards to MoD? Who said I was ignoring him? You? Go figure. I already addressed what I had to say in regards to MoD. Go read it if you haven't.

Now what do you mean you have been forthright with everyone except me? Up until now, your comments have, indeed, been broad as I've mentioned earlier. You've gone from jumping onto Lilan because you agreed with Ambar to saying something about Confused that you never clarified, despite me even mentioning, until it was asked by Confused herself. Also there's the whole vote on MoD that you make that you originally call "a vote in jest", yet he is apparently scum to you despite never having said so before you had clarified it to someone else who is not me (because, quite frankly you, you were never insightful in the least despite how much you said you were -- not until someone else asked you questions that you decided to answer).

Pretty much you're telling me you did this, when in reality you did something entirely different.

1) No. And I'll tell you why in one word: Intent.

2) When crafting a post that has no basis on the game what so ever, such as is your post of complete opinion, you have two options. You can present a hypothetical example or you can intentionally draw attention to an in game event. You chose not to use a hypothetical to prove your point. Thus you actively chose to draw attention to MoD as I've said numerous times already. You can continue to respond with, "No I didn't, no I didn't!" all you want but the fact remains you made a conscious decision to do exactly what I said you did.

3)




You did. A couple times. In just that one post.

As for me clarifying, it's not up to me to make sure everybody understands the things I do. If a player doesn't understand something or has a question for me, it's their responsibility to ask those things of me. To that end only Lilan and Confused have asked such things outside of yourself. They have been answered. Speaking broadly is irrelevant if people already know what I'm doing or just don't care (which is probably more the case).

1.) So in other words it was your intent to agree with Akbar? Cool.

2.) There you go. Apparently reality must conform to what you state because that is how it is yes?

Sambar made a post with his opinion. I piped up disagreeing with him because it isn't fact. I say it is moot to argue over because it is. Getting into a heated debate over something like that wouldn't help town in the slightest. I recognize that and simply state I disagree with him

You on the other hand take that to mean there is more to it. That it is so important that I called the topic moot. Get over it. It is moot. It is as moot as arguing over how useful voting the third person to vote is. It will only serve to distract from other meaningful avenues of discussion. But I suppose you want that since you continually seek that with me. Maybe you want the town flooded with rhetoric till we all lose interest.

3.) Yeah. How meaningful of an insight it was when all I did was use him as an example. So similar to an actual, insightful post that comments on what the person is up to.

And sure. Let people ask the questions rather than take it upon yourself to inform them. It is oh so town-like doing it that way. Bravo.

1) Who wouldn't agree with the Admiral?

2) The name of the game is behavioral analysis, reading subtext and cues to sift through lies to the truth. You're too experienced to claim to not know that.

3) Everything you do is insightful KoD. As is everything you don't do.

was gonna do my daily vote count but nothing has changed and activity's been low enough that I could do the count from the Topic Review. I'm gonna assume the drop in activity is due to the weekend, but just in case I'm gonna prod again in 48 hours anyone who hasn't posted since this post.

Vote Count
Ambar (5): Lilan, MoD, Confused, Freddeh, HW
MoD (1): Numbers
Lilan (1): Ambar
HW (1): Rubik
Numbers (1): KoD

Not Voting: Scarlet, PP, Garren

with 12 alive it is 7 to lynch, deadline is Saturday, April 4th, 10:19 PST

Honestly of the three of us, I think Febb (PP) is the only one I think that description fits. Ragnarokio (Lilan) lurks literally every game I see him play scum (thus he aids town by sort of soft-confirming himself when he plays actively) and I always act in what I perceive to be the best interest of whatever faction I'm a part of. Febb (PP) is the only one of the three of us who I've seen regularly actively fight against his win-condition intentionally.

I think the problem is that you perceive people joking around to be anti-town, when in reality it's just a part of all three of our posting styles. I admit in Dwarf Fortress (my first game on Px2 and probably the worst mafia experience I've had), I let that get to an anti-town level, but I think I've played to my win condition pretty well in most—if not all—of my subsequent games. It's not that we play like scum every game, it's that you're bad at reading us.

---

@Razorborne: If Scarlet doesn't post anything soon can we get a replacement? I really dislike the idea of policy lynching lurkers and I hate the idea of letting a player get away with doing nothing day 1.

Scarlet posted on Friday. weekends are usually low-activity so I'm not that concerned with them not posting then. the rest of that is strategic concerns, which as the host I have no intention of involving myself with. as I said I will prod anyone who doesn't post within the next 48 hours, and if they don't respond to that prod further steps may be taken.

Fair enough, I guess you two aren't quite as bad as Febb.

Either way, my beef with you (in this game at least) has little to do with joking, it has to do with your lack of contribution. I like humor as much as the next guy, but you need to also contribute something with it or I'll come after you every time.

I don't really like your mod prod too. Reads too much like scum trying to act helpful, especially since you should be smart enough to realize what Razor just said.

Ok Tmich, I'll bite, Ambar wagon is getting too stagnant atm anyway.

Unvote;Vote: Lilan

U[b]nvote;vote:lilan.[/b]

To be frank, after ambar stopped posting while beong at L-2 I'm much more willing to lynch him over lilan, but is not like lilan hasbeen useful either, and I still can shake off the feeling that freddeh's posts are shady in this game...
I just can't townread anyone,sorry.

I'd still would like to know who ambar is.
Also I posted a quesyion to masterofdoom,if it was understandable I'd like an answer.

Sorry all, the past 72 hours have been rough, and I honestly didn't think I'd still be alive. I figured this was enough day 1 talk, and someone would drop the hammer by now. I approve of the Lilan wagon, of course. The fact that I'm still alive means that I'm going to have to spend some time really reading what's been said - mostly between KoD and numbers. At a meta level, I have to believe that one of them is scum. It seems like at least one of them is trying to flood the game and distract people from other things going on.
Right now, I'm leaning toward numbers being scum- mostly just a feeling. His posts really seem to be tunneling, and, for once, it's not on me, which also seems odd.

HW - I'm sure at least two people know by now - I'm not a blast from the past, or anything like that. I'm just NeoSilk, as a MuP...mostly just trying to break the cycle of being mafia.

So, like I said, it's been a rough couple of days - now that I might be able to contribute a bit more, since I'm still alive, I'll try and dedicate some time tomorrow to do a more in depth read through and post some more thoughts.

a. HW votes for lilan
b. HW states that he's more willing to lynch ambar instead of lilan (despite changing his vote reflecting the contrary)
c. I assume he meant to type "I still can't shake off the feeling that freddeh's posts are shady in this game" despite making a deal to wagon with him on Lilan.

I don't know why I seem to be the only one who finds this scummy. He's saying one thing and then making a deal with someone who he thinks is scummy as an excuse to do the other.

---

I'm going to be honest, I still think both of these wagons (Ambar and Lilan) are pretty weak. While I'm obviously not positive, I feel like scum has gotten into a comfortable position where two townies have gotten wagons to naturally form on them (although Lilan's wagon has been a lot more elastic, which could be significant in some way). I feel more confident that Ambar is town than Lilan, but I also feel more confident that Ambar getting lynched will give us more information to go off of than Lilan. The fact that Ambar has claimed vanilla town also means we have a lower risk of accidentally hitting a town power role. That said, I'd rather vote for someone who I think has a reasonable chance of being scum instead of bandwagoning something I don't believe in. If I had to choose between the two of them, I'd personally go with Ambar because I feel like it's less risky and we stand to learn more from it, but I'm obviously not going to take that vote unless I'm put in a position where I personally have to decide between the lesser of two bad wagons.

You aren't forced to vote for one of them.

I know, that's why I'm still voting for HW.