Look man, you do what you gotta do.

wait what? who said PP, as a person, was worthless? what the hell are you talking about? we've said PP hasn't contributed. years of experience shows that, when you apply pressure to someone who hasn't contributed, they usually start contributing. and this isn't some base psychological reaction: PP has previously expressed full knowledge of the tactical value of this sort of behavior, so ascribing it to subconscious tics is pointless and deceptive.

condemn who? what are you talking about? PP hasn't been defensive. PP hasn't been anything. that's the problem. I think defensiveness is an over-used scum tell, but that's not even close to what's happening here.

you've used multiple deeply flawed arguments to try to turn attention away from PP. you've quoted statistics in places they clearly don't apply (statistics, by the way, built on faulty data: you still haven't indicated how more than one of PP's posts could possibly be considered "grey area".) your view on handling lurkers flies in the face of basically every piece of mafia theory and every single experience playing this game, and it relies on repeatedly painting PP as a helpless victim under attack by the big bad razorborne and KoD, which is odd because their lurking was what brought that heat down on them in the first place. it's not like we chased them into hiding: they've been hiding all game, and their only contributions to date have been directly in response to people going after them for it.

There is a difference between not going after someone, and defending someone (in reference to your first post, assuming a quoting accident).
I agree with you razor, but whom was applying pressure to PP previously. KOD. And kod doesn't apply "pressure" he tunnels and following someone into a tunnel is detrimental all around. Thus I tried to give him a push in the right direction.
I'm not turning attention away from PP for the sake of turning attention away, my entire point for today was to bring to light a possible connection between you and rubik, and people started labeling me as defending people. The first post was me making a clarification. The second post was US adding his two cents... the third post was KOD blaming me for defending PP.

I consider defending yourself a grey area, as it can sometimes be used later.

Again, I'm not defending PP, I'm looking for a trial by posting. I'm simply not aggressing at him.

Though, it's ironi because the post I stoppped writing to respond is thus, and I will state: If zinger can get a replacement, I'm placing my vote on PP. Otherwise, for now, it remains on myself and potentially pariahking.

And the only reason he posted so much is because he doesn't care to be helpful even when he is town (note that there was only one scum in that game, but the displayed behavior was not helpful in any way). He was lynched too, in case that wasn't obvious, without having helped town in any way.

As for a D1 lynch, PopPa makes the perfect lynch choice because if he's going to continue playing like this, he'll do it as town (like in Werewolves) and he'll do it as scum (Intervals and Curse of the Blood Witch). Whoever it was that said it before is right. He, and others like him, will keep on doing it until they are punished each and every single time up until they get tired of getting lynched. It is much better to use the D1 lynch on someone like this than it is to do so later down the road when it may be too late.

As for the discussion about lynching Rubik or Razor, that's something I would consider for D2 after the first round of night abilities to see what happens. For now, if we lynch anyone, then it should be PopPa.

Preview Edit:

Alt


Aww, that's cute. Do you think I would leave it up to my trust in others to actually go back and read stuff? If they do, bravo on them. Otherwise, it doesn't harm me at all to go back and dredge up what is relevant to any conversation I participate in. And as a by the by, concerning this line, are you saying I'm not bringing relevant information to light? Because I'm pretty sure I did when I claimed my old role abilities (first person to volunteer given that no one else has mind you). And since this is all about PopPa, where does he fit into all this? Pretty sure he's not bringing anything relevant to light. Is he?



Then why bring it up? Trying to sling mud or draw attention away from a not-so-useful player like PopPa?



What are you even talking about here?

First, my quoting of posts in bulk, that you so dislike, is in regards to displaying how PopPa acts (as of this post) and showing that what you are saying is false (as of my last post). You made an assertion: That I'm not giving PopPa credit for making 10 posts. I went back and brought up those 10 posts for all to see. With an easy click of the sblock no less (making it far easier to view than going back over many pages trying to find the posts yourself -- no I don't care that you can do it for yourself). As was easily showcased by the posts, the 10 posts are pretty much composed of crap, and you want me to give credit to crap? You may regard crap as being content/useful/worth giving credit to. I don't, especially when a majority of them (like 8/10 of them) are useless as far as content goes. As far as I'm concerned, your assertion was not only made in error, it was crap just like the crap it was "defending".

Second, what do you mean by "take me down"? The only thing I had to address concerning you was your error in assertion regarding PopPa. Anything else? Hardly worth mentioning. Except for how you definitely are coming across as defending PopPa whether it is directly or indirectly.



Refer to the part just above this one. I talk about PopPa. You talk about PopPa. I quote PopPa to prove you wrong. You tell me I need to quote you to prove you wrong. As far as I'm concerned, you're not knowledgeable in regards to PopPa's behavior. Having to quote you to disprove what you said about PopPa is not the only way to disprove either. I brought forth reasonable enough evidence to disprove your assertion as to how "useful" (my word use to describe the argument about PopPa's posting) PopPa has been. Whether or not you acknowledge that is your problem, and not one I need to deal with as my job is already done concerning it.



So you're asserting that because I pressured PopPa, that is what caused US to "react" as you say? Reached a faulty conclusion you have. For the record, you're not using that word correctly... Hypocrisy. My focus was on PopPa. I only ever mentioned US in passing and not in regards to his activity (up until we started arguing about that too). Now if US had been just like PopPa (that is, being useless to the town/unhelpful), then you'd have a point since I'd be treating him different than PopPa despite similar behaviors from the two; however, as I have explained and as US has proven with his content, US is not similar to PopPa. He's done more. Period. Ergo, I cannot be a hypocrite based on how I reacted to those two.

As for Storyteller's comment, I already addressed what he said. How he portrayed the situation regarding the pressuring is not how it played out. Fact is, US was never really pressured and PopPa was. And when it comes to me, I never pressured US at all -- unless Storyteller thinks my comment about how "US needs to die" is pressuring to which I just laugh at him for not being a part of the history that US and I share.

Either way, you're wrong Alt.

Preview Edit AGAIN:

Alt, it's the way you're reacting to me posting about PopPa that comes off as "defending".

I do mean to ignore everything else in your post following this farce:
Altimis claim:
viewtopic.php?f=26&t=10412&sk=a#p326849
came five hours before...
KOD Claim:
viewtopic.php?f=26&t=10412&sk=a&start=80#p327039

#LikeABoss

Any further questions from the peanut gallery? Definite misinformation.

I have secured a replacement for PariahKing. He will replace in at the end of Day 1/beginning of Night 1. He will have his own role based on a card he chose, but will retain PariahKing's alignment. There will be no ModKill, but while his replacement won't come in until later I will remove PK from the game immediately. This will not alter the required number of votes for toDay's lynch, given that we are dropping from 13 players to 12, a majority still requires 7 votes.

Remember that if a majority is not reached, the Day ends with No Lynch.

PariahKing has been Exiled. He was Nicol Bolas, Planeswalker. His alignment is unknown.

technically speaking I claimed my old role first.

I never claimed to claim first, just that I claimed before KOD


[/quote]
If you bring the statistics in question to my attention I can try to alleviate the situation, but as of now I have no idea what you are referring to and will assume it's baseless.
1) If I'm using faulty info, and I don't know it, I will continue to do so.
2) If my statistics are off I, as a person, want to know because I'm supposed to be good at this.
3) I hate being wrong more than anything...

With Zinger's confirmation.
VOTE: Popular Pariah

Keeping my fingers crossed that Mafia lost their NK.
Before day ends, I would like to submit that my current thoughts on a mafia team are:
Razor, Rubik (hopefully Poppa) and a fourth unkown.
If people want to test this theory, I would lynch Razor first.

While annoying, KOD hasn't done anything I find inherently scummy.

If you bring the statistics in question to my attention I can try to alleviate the situation, but as of now I have no idea what you are referring to and will assume it's baseless.
1) If I'm using faulty info, and I don't know it, I will continue to do so.
2) If my statistics are off I, as a person, want to know because I'm supposed to be good at this.
3) I hate being wrong more than anything...

With Zinger's confirmation.
VOTE: Popular Pariah[/quote]
I already quoted the post where you tried to make a statistical argument about the relative quality of US and PP's posts, in which you claimed that PP had one definitely beneficial post and 2-3 "grey area" ones. can you indicate which 2-3 of those posts are grey areas and which is "definitely beneficial"? and while you're at it, can you explain how such an absurdly binary scale analysis can possibly be relevant in a game like this?

@alt:

Don't worry. I don't blame you for ignoring everything else. Were I you, not even I would want to argue against the truthful points I brought up to your erroneous assertions.

That being said, you are right. I was not the first to claim. Oh well.

At least I proved you wrong where it matters.

As a by the by, alt, even though I wasn't the first to volunteer (depending on perspective since I definitely volunteered my old role -- which has been removed from the game no less) the fact remains I still brought information to light which *was* useful. The point is not defeated there either.

It's a guidline, not real statistics. I was thinking you were talking about my assessment of you/rubik.

What you're worried about is a general guideline and far from statistical analysis. I was in debate with KOD who's main point was that PP was posting only slightly more than US. I was pointing out that the posts were not as close as he was making them out to be, regardless of quality.

The second post regarding that was about quality and can and probably should be ignored. It's far from statistical. Sure US has a better percentage of useful posts. but to go to an extreme, if a player has a 100% quality assured postrate, but only posts once a day, I would absolutely hate playing with that person regardless of how useful taht information is. I prefer post count to qulaity as it gives me somehting to do, and others to base information on. That's not saying I think quantity is BETTER than quality, I'm literally saying that I like quantity more to use against others.

Does that make a little more sense, andor put your mind slightly more at ease if at all?

At KOD: Sure, one point in a wall of text start condensing it and we can talk

Fair. Will include this in the next one.

I consider anything that alters perception of alignments to be bastard. Ergo, you can count on there being no millers, babyface, paranoid cops, or anything else that might alter perception of alignments.

Just to say my piece:
My point was that you pressuring PP inherently reduces the value of his later posts, not because he's forced to defend himself (in fact I consider this a good thing), but because any post made this way comes with the label "pressured". Then, when they both start talking, you consider PP's posts to be worth less because of a label you yourself placed on them. I found this hypocrisy funny.

Then, the fact that this is one of those few instances that the above hypocrisy ends up being legit since this is PP. His lurking habit has severely annoyed me in the past, mostly due to the pointless one-liners he seems to so favor (though this statement will probably come back to bite me since I have quite an active-lurking habit myself). This fact amused me further.

Preview edit x3: you guys are really going at it.

Now that numbers is gone, I need someone to keep me on my toes

Your point is null ST.

The only reason I even got any kind of post out of PopPa was because I voted him. Prior to that, he had plenty of time to make good posts. Instead all I got for responses were things along the lines of, "yeah, sure, next time, i'll get around to it," etc etc. It wasn't until after I placed my vote on him that I got a quality post out of him.

That, in a nutshell, proves what razor has been saying about pressuring lurkers. This also disproves your point.

@alt:

Sorry, but I don't do favors. If you don't want to address your faulty assertions, that's on you. Not me.

I agree, the point was null because this is PP we're talking about.
Like I said, this fact served to amuse me further.

kod's pretty much right about that.