I just had a strange though about this situation, what are the chances that Garren and s_e are neighbors and Garren is actually the vig while s_e is the neighbor? s_e claimed vig to protect Garren from nk while trying to collect opinions from the rest of us.

Yea, I know I know. Not too high a chance.


After reading fel's points on s_e, I am curious to know what s_e is gonna say about them, in particular point 4. Personally, I had the impression that he didn't speak up about his powers since everyone had already went on to talk about 'leashing', how to use his powers, etc. Like he feels he is gonna be 'ignored'.

And, Garren, lynch all liars is a bad policy, may I ask why?

At this moment, I am thinking of voting between Garren and Neo.

Neo's reply to my question feels kinda strange, I have seen people reasoning to not vote to prevent the mafia from hammering and ending the day early. Not voting to prevent a possible bandwagon feels strange, especially imo, that bandwagon isn't likely to start either. We had two inactives and one vote each on two other people. That's 4 out of 12 people already.

As for Garren, Zinger brought up the point about Garren not subscribing to spotting play style inconsistencies. Garren says unless it is on Day 1. So I am thinking, a person who thinks it is useless to go with spotting play style inconsistency probably wouldn't bother with it in the first place. I imagine said person would be trying to piece things together from whatever info thus far instead. Also, Garren, is your latest 'high-strung and exploding at the slightest provocation (-yada yada-) killed for inconsistent play' statement a joke? Because, that certainly feels like a contradiction. Also also, I do recall bits here and there about you 'exploding' and subsequently getting lynched for it in other games. Which feels like what I am seeing now. Which feels like another contradiction to your newly-announced loyalties on surviving to Day 2.


Hmm, for now, Vote: Garren.

So, Day 1 is ending soon.

First, I am going to mention who I suspect and why, in order of how suspicious.

Of late, Popular Pariah has leaped to the top of my list. As I see it, he overreacted and tried to ignore my attack on his slip by citing I was saying nothing, classic scumtell, etc... Then, when I respond to him, he didn't respond until after a third party got involved on the issue on his side. Largely, despite being one of the two players involved in the incident, he has taken a back seat in discussing the matter. And, for the most part, he has contributed little throughout the day, often saying little days apart and those posts seem to more often be questions than any sort of statement indicating where he stands.

Garren has suddenly flung himself to the top of my suspicions. Initially, I was somewhat willing to accept the idea that as a player he might just saying foolish things that don't completely line up. Then, he blatantly contradicts himself. He claims he only had hunches on players, but decided to use false evidence to say they seemed town to him because he believes hunches aren't enough. He has also began hinting at his role and then claimed it citing inexperience as his reason. Perhaps he is just putting his foot in his mouth, as he says, but it's hard to believe that he would throw the game that hard when he claims his goal is just to survive to Day 2.

Squinty claims without a reason, something I am paranoid of as being a lie because of how eager it makes people to say they could never see scum doing that. And he has largely lurked, saying little unless prompted by someone else.

Neosilk has decided to hold off on voting for fear of a bandwagon. When the most votes anyone has is 1. While noting how votes are important information to look back on in later days. Uh huh. I also dislike little things done earlier such as advising the doc in targets and his certainty that Squinty is town.

Storyteller's early inconsistency on using flavor to determine alignment is all I really find suspicious. I still find it suspicious, but as day draws to a close, I find it to be minor compared to some of the actions committed by later players.

Now, I will note my problems with my suspicions.

Despite how obvious it seems, I am somewhat hesitant to commit on Pariah because I could be blinded by the fact he attacked me. I try to avoid giving it any thought in the matter, but it could influence my decision making without a doubt.

Garren still feels town to me. I know hunches mean little on their own, but I have trouble seeing scum paint themselves so neatly into a corner like he has.

I am more interested to give Squinty the benefit of the doubt and see what happens tonight. I suppose that's not really a problem with the suspicions.

I have little to go on regarding Storyteller. He has been active, provided information, but the only thing I have against him is an inconsistency on flavor from the start of the game. Hard to know if I'm right or just tunneling to hard.

As for how I will vote and those I favor to be killed by Squinty (Obviously, not voting Squinty.)

Garren feels like an easy bandwagon. It's to easy to justify a sudden flurry of votes onto him and rush him to his hanging. And I would have a hard time seeing anyone as suspicious for it given how neatly he has incriminated himself at the last minute. And as I said, choosing to give Squinty the benefit of the doubt.

Of the three remaining, I choose to go with the one I have no reservations on.

Vote: Neosilk

Based on my own suspicions, I would most like to see Pariah dead. Even not considering how he responded to me, he has lurked a lot. And lurkers tend to keep lurking, in my experience. I wouldn't mind seeing anyone dead who I find suspicious really, but Pariah's aversion to the limelight is what I see as the largest threat if those I find suspect are scum.

I forgot something obvious.

Unvote; Vote: Neosilk

That is fair. I personally could see myself being much more aggressive and you could see yourself being much more cautious. All in how we play, I guess.





Would you like me to provide you with an essay on the subject? When I say consider, I do mean I weigh it, I think about it, I understand it. I don't personally see the need to mostly repeat you and then state that I find it less compelling than concerning myself if Squinty is town. Perhaps I should have, just for the sake of doing it to satisfy you, but I don't see the need for it.



I don't see a real benefit of enacting a plan based on the fact we don't know his alignment. Let's say we plan to do so anyway because you think it's a great plan and you sway town and Squinty to go along with you. Here is the only successful outcome I really see because of it. Squinty completely lied about his role, he gets caught lying about it, we lynch him, he's scum. Now, assuming he is a killing role, which actually seems fairly likely given the flavor of the character he claimed, we arrive at a less successful situation. If he turns out to not be town, he will probably help us systematically eliminate other town, maybe scum (depends on if he is third party or not) while largely getting passed over on much of the blame because he has agreed to enact the will of the masses. Even if he agrees, he would be one of many who chose that person to die. Now, if he turns out to be a town killing role, what have we accomplished? Well, perhaps we have an additional line of discourse to person. Namely, "Why'd you want Squinty to kill that guy." Otherwise, we add in a fun element of potentially allowing the scum to run in and sway the Vig Vote to keep Squinty killing town while he still likely suffers little backlash.

I don't see why we want to potentially obscure Squinty from the town's discernment in this way. We can still advise him, he can still ask for help with who to target, but he bears the responsible. If it appears he is doing something for a scummy reason, we assume his to be scum and lynch him. If he appears to have town's best interests in mind, we keep him alive and keep advising him.

[quote="[url=http://forum.nogoblinsallowed.com/viewtopic.php?p=249868#p249868]Not all attacks are slander, yes. But all slander is an attack. Given your attack was a baseless allegation, I'd say you fall squarely in slander land. And I would agree that when a player points out a slip that an aggressive counter attack isn't expected. And I did not see one in return. But that's not even what I was saying. As I said before, there are a multitude of ways you could have come at what you saw as a slip. The most basic would be to simply quote what you thought was a slip and simply say, "Is this a slip?" opening the venue to everybody to discuss. What you chose to do was barely point out that you thought you caught a slip and then create a hostile situation by throwing around a baseless attack. That course of action, however, will be expected to be returned with a hostile answer, as that's human nature. But PopPa did not bite your troll bait. Instead he came back with a calm response that you've labeled over defense while simultaneously asserting that he ignored your attack. [/quote]

Again, I may have chosen poor words for the situation, but I see him as overreacting on something minor in an effort to obscure my attack on him.

Edit for last post:



Again, I may have chosen poor words for the situation, but I see him as overreacting on something minor in an effort to obscure my attack on him.

The round is not ending soon. We still have like 36 hours.

The policy isn't bad in and off itself so much as the the innate mechanical 'lair = auto lynch' reaction people tend to have justified on it; that is to say the 'he lied and therefore must be lynched regardless of any other variables' thing people do. Mostly because their are town roles which pretty much have to lie to survive (Doc jumping to the top of my mind) both the questions from other townies and from mafia trying to sniff out the power rolls.


About one half joke one half observation. I'm falling back on humour to try and save my ass because there is nothing I can say which will convince people I am town at this point.


I don't see how that's a contradiction. Doesn't everyone want to survive until at least day two? It's not like I'm exploding because I want too - I'm exploding partially because I am frustrated so many people seem to think I'm scum, because there is nothing I can do about that, and because it's expected off me at this point.

Oh and Proud Pariah is my neighbor. When y'all lynch me and I flip town somebody do me the favour of putting a bullet between his eyes. Odds are one of us is mafia.

Garren, aren't you giving up way to soon? There are what, 2 votes on you? Even someone that is suspicious about you (Niklor) opted to vote on someone else that he's more suspicious about.

People thinking you're scum is something normal in a game of Mafia. You need to accept that.

...I am terrible under pressure. In my defense I have a terrible track record with this sort of thing. The second anyone looks at my I tend to get killed for things - mostly poorly thought out wording of my defense being taken as contradictory and shifty.

Fake Edit: I honestly find it a lot worst in Day 1. There is basically nothing but hunches to go off and you can't defend against peoples hunches so nothing you can say stops you looking guilty. Day 1's just a glorious game of russian roulette until someone dies and we can actually start putting some solid arguments together.

In genereal, while most accusations are indeed based on hunches, remember that some of those are probably from Mafia players, which makes them not hunches at all. This might give you a lead.

But this behavior is the same one you showed in past games. The difference here, though, is that you're really overestimating the amount of pressure you're taking. Which makes me less inclined to believe it.

Well, I need to learn to pay attention to mod announcements. I'm still committed to my current course of action.



well, that's certainly a little bomb. Curious to see how "Proud" Pariah responds.



Well, I'm more opting to vote on someone who I have no reservations on as opposed to who I find most guilty. Garren was second in order of those I find suspicious, right behind Pariah, if you recall.

Ok, fine.




Better?

Well I have two votes at the moment, SeTiny confirmed a little ways back his vote is on me (he just doesn't vote early) and this game is a 'highest vote count lynched if majority not reached'. I'd say I'm kinda under that pressure right now considering I am the highest vote by +2.

Wrong. First, there's only 2 votes on you. You can't count votes that haven't been made yet. Second, what Tiny said was that, by the time he posted, he would be voting on you. And that was 3 days ago. A LOT can change in 3 days.

You're really overestimating this. And, in my book, that has been your ruin.

Is there anyway you could say it that makes me look like more of an irritating prick? Seriously, I have a reputation here.

A fair enough point. Okay - I'm going to spend the next day reacting calmly and logically to all questions. Then I'm going to recommence panicking on the 17th. Good enough?

So what you're saying is you want to sway SE to kill who you want him to, but then if they flip town you want to go, "SE wtf bro? Why you killin town?" If you're going to put the responsibility on SE, why would you try to intervene at all? I mean if SE kills Bob and people question him about it and he says, "Frank made a really good argument so I went with it." Do you really think Frank should be free and clear of all suspicion? To me that is a greater advantage to mafia than a majority vote, as the blame falls on the voters in the latter, where it should be.

@Garren, I have two questions for you if you don't mind a little bit of blatant fishing after you're neighbor reveal.

1) Has PopPa been more active in the neighborhood than he has here?
2) Has he said anything in private that actually makes you think he is scum?

EBWOP, missed an end quote tag:



Always. What I want is a visible record of what you say you're doing. As I said before, there's no reason for anybody to believe what you say you do off the forums. From my perspective what I've seen from you today was akin to saying. "My idea is super! Yes, yes you have an idea too, but mine is better. Sure I considered your idea (makes fapping gestures with hand) but my idea is super awesome, let's do my idea guys!"



So what you're saying is you want to sway SE to kill who you want him to, but then if they flip town you want to go, "SE wtf bro? Why you killin town?" If you're going to put the responsibility on SE, why would you try to intervene at all? I mean if SE kills Bob and people question him about it and he says, "Frank made a really good argument so I went with it." Do you really think Frank should be free and clear of all suspicion? To me that is a greater advantage to mafia than a majority vote, as the blame falls on the voters in the latter, where it should be.

@Garren, I have two questions for you if you don't mind a little bit of blatant fishing after you're neighbor reveal.

1) Has PopPa been more active in the neighborhood than he has here?
2) Has he said anything in private that actually makes you think he is scum?[/quote]

Pah I'll give ya it. I know I'm not making use of it.

1) Not really no. 13 Posts in the thread, 8 posts in the chatroom. So about as active in both.

2) Personally I just think he is scum because (IMO) it makes sense that one of us would be. Call me overly paranoid but I don't see why we wouldn't just be Masons if we were both town - unless Scarlet is just messing with me on purpose.

As for what he has said I can give a quick summary;

• I ask him if he is evil, he confirms no, says it doesn't matter anyway because we don't know each others alignments.
• Asks my thoughts on S_E and Niklor, says we should probably be more vocal since we have a chat room
• I tell him my views, he says S_E's claim works just as well for scum fakeclaiming as it does townies.
• Said I'd be killed for lying once people stop paying attention to him and Niklor fighting (this being in response to my 'I know three peoples powers' post I made).
• I get confused, ask him where I lied, he confirms it's about knowing S_E power.
• I explain what I meant, he says he'd be jumping on me for it if I wasn't his chat buddy
• I tell him I assumed he was mafia (for the reason I stated above), asked him if this power was even useful
• He says yes it is even if one of us is mafia

And that's that. Last post was on the 12th.