There has to be stuff to mention besides "wow there was a lot of discussion".
I'm quite aware. I've been sick lately and haven't had much of any presence on the board at all, and I'm sorry for that. As far as the entire random lynch discussion, it's such a bad idea I can't even begin to touch on it. Don't do it, please. I will try and talk more soon, but I'm still really under the weather. Missed johnny's Quest too and had to have a buddy fill in for me....
Obviously I'm not the most knowledgeable on the subject but it seems to me that a random lynch on day 1 will be a detriment in the long term. Rag has a few good points but trying to point to a sample of just 11 games to support his argument is... underwhelming to say the least. He also was fine lynching me and when I asked why he said "just jokes". Not so sure about that one.
Obviously I'm not the most knowledgeable on the subject but it seems to me that a random lynch on day 1 will be a detriment in the long term. Rag has a few good points but trying to point to a sample of just 11 games to support his argument is... underwhelming to say the least. He also was fine lynching me and when I asked why he said "just jokes". Not so sure about that one.
I'm fine with lynching you too. Are you going to pull that card on me as well?
Joined: Sep 25, 2013 Posts: 5149 Location: Toronto, Ontario
Identity: Spider-Man
Preferred Pronoun Set: Wtf is a "Jabber address"?
Ragnarokio has flawed logic, but I see that as an indication of differing opinion, not an indication of Alignment. I have a hard time believing that pro-random Lynch Ragnarokio is in favour of random lynching as a scum tactic to get Town to shoot themselves in the foot.
That being said we have little else to go on Day 1, so I'm fine with a potential Ragnarokio Lynch, I'm just suspicious of certain members on his bandwagon for labelling Rag as scum for having a different opinion and/or using flawed logic. Town can have different opinions or use flawed logic too.
Intentionally misrepresenting a fact isn't a difference of opinion Zinger. And it's been labeled intentional for the simple reason that when he was corrected on his misrepresentation, he continued to push his stance, even though it is proven to be wrong. Now town can have a difference of opinion, in this case namely the notion that town would be the only ones for a random lynch. And town is certainly capable of using flawed logic. But when it's pointed out that the logic is factually incorrect, continuing to insist on using it in the face of logic and reason makes you culpable. Or are you really trying to insist that intentionally misrepresenting facts in order to make your stance seem more true than it actually is is a valid town play?
I have used some fallacious logic, but not nearly as much as KoD and Numbers have, who seem to misunderstand the basic nature of probability. The one point I will give them is that 11 games is not a suitable sample size, and I expressed more confidence in the 18% figure than I probably had the right to, given the evidence. The conclusions that I drew and the reasons I made for drawing them, are, as far as I can tell, sound.
Here's my argument for random voting, prettied up and detailed:
Spoiler
Intro: I am arguing in favor of a random lynch. The random lynch, in my view, has one essential strength, and one essential weakness. How you weigh these off against each other should largely determine whether or not the random lynch is suitable for you. The strength of the random lynch is that it has a greater chance of hitting scum than a non-random lynch.. The weakness is that it yields less information than a non-random lynch. Read on for details.
Chance of hitting scum: The chance of the random lynch hitting scum in this game is 25%. In other games this number may be higher or lower depending on the ratio of scum to town. When the number of scum rises in relation to the number of town, it becomes more likely to lynch scum, and as the number drops it becomes less likely. This is roughly true whether the lynch is random or not. For non-random lynches, there are two main factors that influence the odds of hitting scum.
The first is the number of scum. Generally speaking, the town's base chance of lynching scum are a little lower than would be proportional. With 1 scum and 9 town players, the basic odds of hitting scum are a little under 1/10. With 2 scum and 8 town they're a little under 2/10. This offset is to account for the fact that scum players are inclined to not vote for other scum players but town players can't do the same, at least without information.
The second factor which influences the odds of hitting scum is information. The more information the town has, be it soft information like voting records or posting patterns that can be analyzed, or hard information like cop results, the more accurate town votes become. As the game progresses and the town gains access to more information, this factor can overwhelm the scum advantage of knowing their team mates. During day 1 however, the information available to town is usually not significant enough to do so.
Because information is low on day 1, but scum still know their allies, the odds of a day 1 scum lynch will fall below what would be proportional for the game (in a game with 1 scum and 9 town, it would be below 1/10, 2 scum and 8 town, below 2/10 etc.) For this game, the odds of a successful day 1 lynch fall somewhere below 25%. Because the odds of a successful random lynch are always exactly proportional, a random lynch will have a higher chance to be successful than a non-random lynch.
Loss of Information: The odds of a successful day 2 lynch have traditionally been regarded as stronger than the odds of a successful day 1 lynch because of the information that can be gathered during the events of day 1. Information can include things like player interactions and voting stances, and also things like cop results and role information. When a players role and alignment are revealed, that allows people to view their actions under a new light and draw conclusions from their behaviours and voting patterns.
The most useful behavioural analysis arguably occurs when a players life is threatened. This is where players begin to have strong incentives for acting in certain ways. If a scum player is in danger of dying, then their companions have strong incentive to save them. There are other similar scenarios, but it could be said that the way a player, whether town or scum, treats a wagon reveals how they really feel about the players involved in the wagon, and about the game state to some extent.
When carrying out a random lynch, the threat of death on individual players is lessened. Although competing wagons may still yield some incentive for players to act in certain ways, if the random lynch is the popular vote, you lose out on some opportunity to learn about how players would react to an actual player being the popular vote.
Information can still be gleaned from a variety of secondary sources, including voting records outside of life-threatening wagons, player arguments and shifts in opinions, and so forth. Unlike with a no-lynch, a player still dies, allowing players to look back on that players interactions with other players during day 1 and draw conclusions from their behaviours.
In Conclusion: Exactly to what extent the random lynch's strength and weakness affect the game is largely up to subjective interpretation. The odds of a day 1 lynch being successful could be determined experimentally but will likely shift from game to game and from meta to meta, and so a degree of subjectivity is required to determine what one thinks the odds of a successful day 1 lynch is. The amount of information lost by pursuing a random lynch wagon is very much subjective, as information is largely impossible to quantify. These interpretations, in addition to how much you personally value information or increasing the odds of lynching scum, are what will determine whether the random lynch seems right to you.
@Numbers: What makes you think i'm scummy as opposed to just stupid and/or stubborn?
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"That winter, the fireplace was never without a crackling blaze in its belly. The boiled wine we drank was undoubtedly middling and cheap, but she said, with a smile, "I've never had wine this good before." And though I didn't say anything, I felt the same way."
Intentionally misrepresenting a fact isn't a difference of opinion Zinger. And it's been labeled intentional for the simple reason that when he was corrected on his misrepresentation, he continued to push his stance, even though it is proven to be wrong. Now town can have a difference of opinion, in this case namely the notion that town would be the only ones for a random lynch. And town is certainly capable of using flawed logic. But when it's pointed out that the logic is factually incorrect, continuing to insist on using it in the face of logic and reason makes you culpable. Or are you really trying to insist that intentionally misrepresenting facts in order to make your stance seem more true than it actually is is a valid town play?
Fair points all around, but explain to me what ways could a scum Rag possibly benefit from the intentional play you are purporting that is being made? All you've done is prove that Rag is stubborn and will stick to an argument in the face of proof to the contrary. I see no scum motivations in anything you've said.
We are not the ones misrepresenting the basic nature of probability. Probability is a mathematical theorem. It doesn't care about your past success rate. It doesn't care about the actions you'll take to circumvent it. These things don't affect probability yet your argument continues to contend that these things do. We've already gone over how past games don't affect probability, so we'll take a quick look at your circumventure argument. You're argument is akin to the kid in math class that, when given the pulling jelly beans out of a bag problem in math class, simply says he'll look in the bag and pull out the one he wants to. You could if you wanted to but then you're not looking at the actual problem at hand and the teacher would tell you as such. Probability is in it's own little pocket universe, where actions don't affect it (this is not to say the success rate will not be affected, but again, probability doesn't care about your success rate).
As for stupid or stubborn, I know you're not stupid Rag. I think it's plainly obvious you're stubborn. But that's a personality trait and not a scum or town tell. I believe that your assertion on a Random lynch today isn't even a scum or town tell in itself, just a matter of opinion. However, I do not believe you've presented any solid backing for your belief and instead have continually misrepresented facts to try to lend credibility to your argument. Since I do not believe town has a reason to do so this early in the game, I cannot believe that your actions are directed by the belief that what you are doing is for the town's benefit. Since I do not believe you are motivated by the town's benefit, I'm only left with the options that you're willing to sacrifice the town's benefit to be "right" or you're actively working against the town's benefit. My default is to lean to the latter. I also feel that True fits into this same conundrum, but in a slightly different way (less "right" more for some abilities end). I haven't decided if he's former or latter though.
@Zinger, both KoD and I have pointed out multiple reasons why scum would push a random lynch. It's the same detrimental reasons Scarlet has given on why town wouldn't support a random lynch. You said you agreed with those. So a question for you, if you can see why town wouldn't support a random lynch, then you can see why scum would (ie scum obviously wants to be of detriment to town). So the question is if you can see all that, why are you trying so hard to keep Rag's fat out of the fire?
Probability is a mathematical theorem. It doesn't care about your past success rate. It doesn't care about the actions you'll take to circumvent it.
I have never claimed that, concerning probability, past success rates influence future success rates. I have never claimed that, concerning probability, how I act influences success rates? (sorry I'm not really sure what you're claiming I said here.)
So you think I'm scum because I'm lying to people about the way math works?
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"That winter, the fireplace was never without a crackling blaze in its belly. The boiled wine we drank was undoubtedly middling and cheap, but she said, with a smile, "I've never had wine this good before." And though I didn't say anything, I felt the same way."
Joined: Aug 05, 2014 Posts: 6083 Location: Here. Always.
Just a note:
I don't believe, at any point, the reason for pursuing Rag as a lynch choice is because of being thought of as scum. Rather, and as JD put it, it has been Rag's approach to pushing the random lynch agenda in different ways. The main one being a misrepresentation of probability. Given that nothing else as impactful has happened yet, Rag's insistence on town going with a random lynch for faulty and misrepresented reasons is a good enough reason to vote him.
Matter of fact, I much prefer the way JD put it in his response to Rag recently. Having assessed Rag's stance, it's a simple conclusion to draw that Rag's agenda is one that is not in the best interest of the town. Why that is, whether because of personality (being stubborn to accept being wrong in the case of probability) or due to being scum, is the only question that need to be asked.
Given the conversation, at length, with Rag, I'm not above saying Rag doesn't know how probability works in this case since he's trying to act like rng can't have a bad success rate like we can. Not to mention Rag's error trying to use success rate as a probability which is wrong.
So, in short Rag, if anyone thinks you're scum, it is because of how you went about pushing the random lynch. Not because you support random lynch (something I had to mention to TB who is also in the same camp of thinking in error like you).
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Spoiler
Minish_Link on 08/02/2020 No one is gonna hold a grudge over a mafia game.
ExLight hahaha stares at KoD
Zinger209908 you are in a better position than you were before KoD saved you from yourselves you should thank him before he kills himself with his hail marry here
funnier6 Also for goodness sake you know KoD could argue until he had sucked all the air in the room and was suffocating on the floor
shadowamber you gotta admit the bus gifs were kinda funny though
I'm fine with lynching you too. Are you going to pull that card on me as well?
No. Rag was pushing for a random lynch but then changed to wanting to lynch me. When I asked him why me over a random lynch he said he was just kidding around.
I'm very comfortable with where my vote is now, and I'm going to wave a big FoS at TB. Random lynch might seem like fun, but it's just a bad idea all around.
@KoD: Why is me using faulty reasoning a scumtell?
_________________
"That winter, the fireplace was never without a crackling blaze in its belly. The boiled wine we drank was undoubtedly middling and cheap, but she said, with a smile, "I've never had wine this good before." And though I didn't say anything, I felt the same way."
Joined: Aug 05, 2014 Posts: 6083 Location: Here. Always.
I never said your use of horrible logic was a scumtell. I said the way you went about pushing the random lynch is cause for people to view you as scummy.
Now, if you think misrepresenting information to push your agenda (one that is not beneficial to the town as far as I am concerned) is not scummy, then that is your problem to figure out.
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Spoiler
Minish_Link on 08/02/2020 No one is gonna hold a grudge over a mafia game.
ExLight hahaha stares at KoD
Zinger209908 you are in a better position than you were before KoD saved you from yourselves you should thank him before he kills himself with his hail marry here
funnier6 Also for goodness sake you know KoD could argue until he had sucked all the air in the room and was suffocating on the floor
shadowamber you gotta admit the bus gifs were kinda funny though
Rag's insistence on town going with a random lynch for faulty and misrepresented reasons is a good enough reason to vote him.
_________________
"That winter, the fireplace was never without a crackling blaze in its belly. The boiled wine we drank was undoubtedly middling and cheap, but she said, with a smile, "I've never had wine this good before." And though I didn't say anything, I felt the same way."
Joined: Aug 05, 2014 Posts: 6083 Location: Here. Always.
You do realize there are other words after that one, particular, word you decided to bold, yes?
You also do realize that what you bolded is true, yes?
It's one thing to be unlearned when it comes to the maths you are talking about. It's another to be shown that you are literally incorrect, yet still pursue your agenda despite being wrong.
Besides, implied or not, I never said it was a scumtell. You're still scummy regardless of that.
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Spoiler
Minish_Link on 08/02/2020 No one is gonna hold a grudge over a mafia game.
ExLight hahaha stares at KoD
Zinger209908 you are in a better position than you were before KoD saved you from yourselves you should thank him before he kills himself with his hail marry here
funnier6 Also for goodness sake you know KoD could argue until he had sucked all the air in the room and was suffocating on the floor
shadowamber you gotta admit the bus gifs were kinda funny though
@Rag, what I'm saying is that you've submitted previously that past success rates and player actions affect probability, which is strictly untrue. Here's some quotes for reference:
Quote:
If we succeeded 18% of the time in the past, then the odds of success are around 18%.
Here you directly state that probability is roughly equal to previous success rate.
Quote:
The first is the number of scum. Generally speaking, the town's base chance of lynching scum are a little lower than would be proportional. With 1 scum and 9 town players, the basic odds of hitting scum are a little under 1/10. With 2 scum and 8 town they're a little under 2/10. This offset is to account for the fact that scum players are inclined to not vote for other scum players but town players can't do the same, at least without information.
Here you are offsetting probability unjustly to account for scum actions.
As for why I think you're scummy, as I said before, I see no reason for town to misrepresent an argument this early in the game. I do see reason why scum would though. So rather than think you're just shooting town in the foot so you can look right, I lean towards you trying to mislead town because you're scum.
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