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 Post subject: [Story]Haltia Redux
PostPosted: Tue Dec 16, 2014 10:55 am 
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Take 2

Chapter 1: A girl in a war torn world ---OLD---
Chapter 1: A girl in a war torn world


Chapter 2: A young girl's lament --OLD--
Chapter 2: A young girl's lament


Ch.3: A History Lesson --OLD--
Ch.3: A History Lesson



Ch.4: The last straw --OLD--
ch. 4: The Last Straw


Ch.5: Hope and Music


Ch.6 --OLD--
Ch. 6: A fateful encounter


EDIT: ch. 5 finished.

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Last edited by killercore007 on Sun May 24, 2015 9:13 pm, edited 24 times in total.

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 Post subject: Re: [Story]Haltia Redux
PostPosted: Tue Dec 16, 2014 6:03 pm 
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Hey, killercore.

So, as you may remember, I teach writing at the college level, and, because we are just now coming up on final drafts and the usual end-of-semester things that we do, I've had the writing process on my mind of late.

With this in mind, I want you to know that I have read this, but I'm not going to give you a review of it. At least, not yet. I want to try a little exercise first, if you're willing to. What I would like you to do is simply answer a question for me: What is the purpose of this piece? Don't read into that question, because I don't mean anything by it. But one thing I tell my students repeatedly is "keep your purpose in mind," and so before I analyze this, I want to know what you think the purpose is. What are you trying to convey to your readers in this piece? What are you trying to accomplish? And I would really like you to challenge yourself and give me just one answer. If you had to pick one, singular thing that you hope to accomplish with the 477 words above, what would that one thing be?

(Again, I promise I will give you my reading at some point here, but I really want to try this exercise with you.)


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 Post subject: Re: [Story]Haltia Redux
PostPosted: Tue Dec 16, 2014 11:03 pm 
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Challenge accepted, lol.

Anyways, to me, the point I tried to create in this first chapter is to convey Haltia itself at a glimpse. It's also to tell the reader of a conflict, the purpose of it, and how it came to be. Last, it tells of the speaker herself, of her views on Haltia and the war, and the effect it's had on her and everyone else.

I think I did the challenge correctly, right? Oh, and I actually forgot to put a sentence at the end of chapter 1. Let me go do that now.

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 Post subject: Re: [Story]Haltia Redux
PostPosted: Wed Dec 17, 2014 12:18 am 
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First of all, thanks for humoring me. I appreciate the effort.

I think I did the challenge correctly, right?

Well, yes and no. You didn't do what I asked you to do, but you did what I sort of hoped you would. Let me explain. What I asked you was this:

If you had to pick one, singular thing that you hope to accomplish with the 477 words above, what would that one thing be?

So, I asked you to choose one thing this section (I hesitate to call it a chapter, merely owing to it's length, but to each their own, of course) was trying to accomplish. You listed three things.

This is very important, and I'll tell you why. This is only a few paragraphs long, less than 500 words, and in your mind, you're trying to do three very important things. That's a lot of things to squeeze into a little space, and the result is a section without a focus. Remember what I said about what I tell my students? The thing about always keeping your purpose in mind? That's very important here. For instance, if you absolutely, categorically, no exceptions allowed, had to tell your readers about ONE of those three things, the world, the conflict, or the narrator, which would you choose? Which one is the most important to you and the story you want to tell?

Here's why this is so important for you to answer for yourself: The first section of this piece reads like an omniscient third person narrator, an invisible entity who is telling us, the readers, about the world. By using third person omniscient narrators, you are establishing an immediate expectation with your readers that the narrator knows everything that is going on and will clue us in on the relevant information. So, right off the bat, you are signaling to your readers that we will need to have an immediate familiarity with Haltia's basic geographical and socio-political layout, as well as a bit of the information on the specific, ongoing war.

HOWEVER, at the end of the second paragraph, you suddenly switch to a first person limited point of view and thrust us into the head of your narrator. This poses two serious problems. The first is the sudden shift is jarring to readers. The second is that it creates a strong disconnect between the main character and our expectations of her. Basically, the first ten sentences or so are written almost like a excerpt from a textbook, whereas the rest is written like a young woman's personal journal. Neither one of these are necessarily bad, but the split in focus causes that disconnect.

For example, imagine that you happened upon the diary of a sixteen year old girl from somewhere in America. What do you think the odds are that she begins her diary like this:

An American Girl wrote:
Earth, a planet with numerous and varied landscapes, like the icecaps at the poles, deserts in the warmer climates, and numerous wetlands and forests throughout. There are numerous people on this planet, and many different cultures and languages. Through times of peace and war, they share this truly spectacular planet.
But then war started. It was due to a number of complex issues that came from the strained culture clashes that those people encountered when they interacted with one another, and even though it only simmered for a time, eventually, it erupted into war because of issues like greed, power, and people's beliefs in great, intangible deities, who were worshiped differently by many people.
And so, here I am, just sorta thinking about all of this...


The point I'm trying to make is that doing the character work from a first person point of view is fine, and probably a good way to go, but you need to keep your focus in mind, your purpose. If you're going to set a story in first person, I personally think your main priority should be to establish the character, not the world. That can all be revealed to us later, through her eyes. Very few people analyze the world they live in like an omniscient third person narrator would, especially not sixteen year old kids who are going through some serious social issues.

Whenever I write a character, I always try to put myself in their place, to momentarily give myself their lives and their motivations, and then I put them in situations and see how they react. It's not always the way you expect. But this exercise is especially important if you want to write in the first person point of view. If your readers are going to accept your protagonist, she has to feel real to us.

So, with all that in mind, I have a few concrete pieces of advice for you. Feel free to disagree with me, of course, this is all just my personal take and my personal approach. First, hold off on the exposition and focus instead on the character. Show us what she's like and how she thinks and experiences her life. Second, take your time. I'm not saying you need to write 10,000 words or anything, but don't feel rushed. Let us, the readers, spend a little time with your character. Drop in little moments to give us hints about the world, but only as they relate to your character.

For example, your narrator is the adopted daughter of the king of the wolf-folk. Fine. And the king is away at the front, yes? Good! Maybe your character should ask one of his servants/soldiers/courtiers if they've had any news from him at the front. That's all you need. That little moment, which you can accomplish in perhaps 50 words, tells us her dad's the king, there's a war, and he's fighting it. We don't need more than that. It also tells us something about the speaker (that she cares about her father's wellbeing) and potentially more than that, depending on how you have her ask and how she responds.

One thing I suggest is reading a few of the character pieces in our Archives to get a sense of how they tackle showing world-building information to the reader. I think OrcishLibrarian's Small Magic or Tevish Szat's Before the Dawn are both good examples of using worldbuilding to heighten character development, rather than making them separate entities.

The last thing I'll leave you with is a little writing exercise I've come up with. Feel free to use it if you like, but don't feel like you have to, by any means. I call it the dialog game. It's a way to look at your characters through different lens. Basically, what you do is you make up three characters. They can be anything, usually stock characters work well for this. The key, though, is to make them very different. Maybe, in your case, a guard, a servant, and young wolf the same age as your narrator. Then, write up a brief conversation, one on one, between your narrator and each of those characters. Start out with the same, or a very similar, line, certain about the same topic. Everybody reacts a little differently to different people and different kinds of people. See where the conversations go. It can really help you get a feel for your character. Is she going to be a little scared of the guard? Is she going to be defensive around the wolf her own age? Try to work in little facts about the world, but try to do it naturally, the same way you would if you were talking to someone in real life.

Anyway, I hope some of that helps. If you have any questions, or if anything I said wasn't clear, just ask.

Thanks for posting!


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 Post subject: Re: [Story]Haltia Redux
PostPosted: Wed Dec 17, 2014 4:41 am 
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Hmm...Seeing all these points, I'm gonna work some changes to the chapter now. To answer your character details question, you'll start seeing a lot of it in the next chapter and beyond so don't worry, it'll happen. I put the old and new versions in the OP.

EDIT: Might as well.

Chapter 2: A young girl's lament

Have to go for now but I'll finish this later.

EDIT: Ok, done with ch. 2

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Last edited by killercore007 on Mon Dec 29, 2014 12:10 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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 Post subject: Re: [Story]Haltia Redux
PostPosted: Mon Dec 29, 2014 12:19 pm 
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Just doing a bump to tell you ch.2 is done.

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 Post subject: Re: [Story]Haltia Redux
PostPosted: Fri Jan 02, 2015 3:36 pm 
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Okay. While there are certainly still problems here in chapter two, I definitely think it's an improvement over chapter one, including the revised chapter one. Your description of Coria is pretty decent, with specific descriptors and some varied word choice. I like it. Also, I do think you do a decent job of conveying Coria's overall melancholy at her situation.

That being said, there are a lot of things that could be improved. For one thing, your constant mixing of modern terminology with the fantasy aesthetic is pretty distracting. This world seems to be sort of middle-ages type fantasy stock, which is good for what you've set up. But then you talk about midriff shirts, acoustic guitars, and pictures (which sound from your description like a photograph). Also, why are so many things "said to be" something? If you can tell us specifically what her shirt is made of, why only give us a rumor about her pants? Wouldn't we know that just as much? Same with her dresser and her bed, which are "said to be" or "supposedly" from some tree. It weakens the narrative doing that unless there's a reason for the mystery, and I'm not seeing a reason here.

The conversation with Holer is not bad, although I've never known young people to admit their uncomfortable feelings to an adult, even one they trust, that quickly, but it's whatever. I will say, though, that you should never put "*sigh*" within dialog. Make is an action outside of the dialog. Something like this:
Quote:
Coria's expression had turned into one of slight shame. She sighed deeply before speaking. "Yeah...", she said. "It's just that I've been really worried about dad, I mean, he's almost never home and I worry something bad is going to happen to him"

(Italics added only to show my change.)

The last thing I'll say about this is that you should not shift between first and third person point of view between chapters. I know I'm the one who suggested first person point of view in your first chapter, but as I feel your style of narration is better here in chapter two, I would suggest you stick to that.

So, overall, I think you are making some improvements, and while Chapter two is far from perfect, I do think it's the best thing you've posted on this forum so far, and that's hopeful.


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 Post subject: Re: [Story]Haltia Redux
PostPosted: Fri Jan 02, 2015 10:58 pm 
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Well, let me explain certain parts:

Quote:
For one thing, your constant mixing of modern terminology with the fantasy aesthetic is pretty distracting. This world seems to be sort of middle-ages type fantasy stock, which is good for what you've set up. But then you talk about midriff shirts, acoustic guitars, and pictures (which sound from your description like a photograph).


I guess I could've explained things better in the chapter. However, midriff shirts do exist in MTG(if there's a more proper term that should be used though, let me know please). Also, going back on what I just said here, by acoustic guitar, I mean like the ones bards use and by pictures, I mean something like this:
Image

Quote:
Also, why are so many things "said to be" something? If you can tell us specifically what her shirt is made of, why only give us a rumor about her pants? Wouldn't we know that just as much? Same with her dresser and her bed, which are "said to be" or "supposedly" from some tree. It weakens the narrative doing that unless there's a reason for the mystery, and I'm not seeing a reason here.


I'm good with details in my head but when it comes to getting them out, well....yeah. Just saying.

Quote:
The conversation with Holer is not bad, although I've never known young people to admit their uncomfortable feelings to an adult, even one they trust, that quickly, but it's whatever. I will say, though, that you should never put "*sigh*" within dialog. Make is an action outside of the dialog


I probably should've put that in the chapter but the reason behind the quick admission is because she knows perfectly well that Holer was just gonna bug her until she said it. As for the "sigh" part, I only did that as I had no other idea how it was done.

Quote:
The last thing I'll say about this is that you should not shift between first and third person point of view between chapters. I know I'm the one who suggested first person point of view in your first chapter, but as I feel your style of narration is better here in chapter two, I would suggest you stick to that.


That's what I kind of was going to do in the first place actually. There is one more part like that somewhere in the story but that's it.

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 Post subject: Re: [Story]Haltia Redux
PostPosted: Fri Jan 02, 2015 11:17 pm 
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While it is true that instruments similar to a modern guitar have existed for thousands of years, when I see the term, especially when prefaced by "acoustic", I think modern. If I were going to make something similar but with an older feel, I would say "Lute" or maybe "chordophone." For the picture, I see your point, although I'd go "drawing" or "portrait" or something, just to clear up the confusion. For the midriff shirt, just describe it. Don't call it a midriff shirt, explain what it looks like. That will avoid the issue.


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 Post subject: Re: [Story]Haltia Redux
PostPosted: Sun Jan 04, 2015 1:27 pm 
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Ok, revised version is up. Let me know anything else about it ok? I'll move to ch. 3 when that's done.

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 Post subject: Re: [Story]Haltia Redux
PostPosted: Sun Jan 04, 2015 3:24 pm 
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One thing that stuck out to me with the revision is when you say the pattern in her shoes denotes her as a member of the royal bloodline. This may be a minor nitpick, but as an obviously adopted child, I would argue that while she is certainly a member of the royal family, she is not, technically, of the bloodline. Admittedly, that division may be meaningless on Haltia, but it jumped out at me.

Also, the error with the "*sigh*" is still there.


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 Post subject: Re: [Story]Haltia Redux
PostPosted: Sun Jan 04, 2015 8:39 pm 
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One thing that stuck out to me with the revision is when you say the pattern in her shoes denotes her as a member of the royal bloodline. This may be a minor nitpick, but as an obviously adopted child, I would argue that while she is certainly a member of the royal family, she is not, technically, of the bloodline. Admittedly, that division may be meaningless on Haltia, but it jumped out at me.

Also, the error with the "*sigh*" is still there.



I already made the change in the OP but here's the change itself here for the royal bloodline part:

"This kind of pattern was unique as it belonged to only to ones considered to be part of the royal bloodline. Even though Coria wasn't born under it and therefore wasn't really of royal blood, she still was considered part of the family that the bloodline entails."

As for the "*sigh*" part, it would seem I somehow missed one of them, but it's fixed now.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Jan 22, 2015 8:48 pm 
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-Can't delete so...-

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Last edited by killercore007 on Tue Feb 03, 2015 10:22 am, edited 3 times in total.

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 Post subject: Re: [Story]Haltia Redux
PostPosted: Wed Jan 28, 2015 5:03 pm 
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Ch.4: The last straw


Ch. 4 done.

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 Post subject: Re: [Story]Haltia Redux
PostPosted: Thu Jan 29, 2015 2:25 pm 
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@Chapter 3:

I do not have time to get into Chapter 4 right now, as I have a doctor's appointment, but I'll try to get to it relatively soon.


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 Post subject: Re: [Story]Haltia Redux
PostPosted: Sat Jan 31, 2015 6:52 pm 
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@Chapter 4


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 Post subject: Re: [Story]Haltia Redux
PostPosted: Tue Feb 10, 2015 11:53 pm 
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At ch.3 stuff:

I guess the execution of telling the history I screwed up on. Also, I think I see what you mean by the drinks.

@Ch.4 stuff:

Uh...Remember that I don't know what words are considered "modern" here...Also, it seems I screwed up and forgot to put two certain things in ch. 4:

1. The reason for Holer leaving Coria alone was due to him not realizing that she wasn't behind him still(and yes, it's a thing that can happen).

2.The bullying part, well, I'm sure you know the phrase "When the cats are away", right? It's basically the same thing. They bully Coria when Triel is not there, preying on the fact that she's likely too scared to say anything.



That being said, I'm starting to feel a bit worried. Not because of the critisism but rather the lack of it. You are right now the only one even bothering to read and say anything about this. I just feel a little overshadowed is all.

EDIT: Fixed up ch.3. Revised version in first post

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 Post subject: Re: [Story]Haltia Redux
PostPosted: Sun Feb 15, 2015 2:41 pm 
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Ch.4 fixed up, though apparently, there was too much to fix, lol.

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 Post subject: Re: [Story]Haltia Redux
PostPosted: Wed Feb 18, 2015 3:19 pm 
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I think I'm going to do an in-line for this, for simplicity's sake. I'll highlight my additions, cuts, and comments in red. The cuts I will also strike through. Also, I will highlight in blue the things I have comments on. I will say, though, that I like the new chapter three MUCH better. The history lesson works much better coming from Holer than being reflected on by Coria, and as readers we can wonder why Holer is bringing it up, rather than have to wonder why you, the writer, is mentioning it. It reads much better, helps with characterizations, and, in my opinion, just works better.

Ch.3: A History Lesson


Ch.4: The last straw


So, there were not a whole lot of changes made from the first draft to this one for chapter 4, but like I had said, I think this was your strongest chapter, anyway. So I do think I’m seeing some degree of improvement here, which is good. As I said at the outset, I think you improved chapter 3 quite a bit, so good job there.


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 Post subject: Re: [Story]Haltia Redux
PostPosted: Wed Feb 18, 2015 3:27 pm 
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I think I'm going to do an in-line for this, for simplicity's sake. I'll highlight my additions, cuts, and comments in red. The cuts I will also strike through. Also, I will highlight in blue the things I have comments on. I will say, though, that I like the new chapter three MUCH better. The history lesson works much better coming from Holer than being reflected on by Coria, and as readers we can wonder why Holer is bringing it up, rather than have to wonder why you, the writer, is mentioning it. It reads much better, helps with characterizations, and, in my opinion, just works better.

Ch.3: A History Lesson


Ch.4: The last straw


So, there were not a whole lot of changes made from the first draft to this one for chapter 4, but like I had said, I think this was your strongest chapter, anyway. So I do think I’m seeing some degree of improvement here, which is good. As I said at the outset, I think you improved chapter 3 quite a bit, so good job there.


I lot of the stuff you pointed out was the result of me not paying attention more than anything I guess. I'll fix up the last things then get working on Ch. 5 soon enough.

EDIT: Ok, fixed them up, though I just realized that I probably shouldn't have replaced the 1st draft with the 2nd one. Meaning like replace the first "--OLD--" with a new one.

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