Okay, listen, I hate to admit it, but my creative juices are congealed at this point. Beyond time just grinding me down, WotC has done their best to kill any joy in the game I've felt. However, while that's made it really hard to interact with the canon, it doesn't mean that I'm not still here, not does it make any of you any less important to me

It does make wanting to work on projects SO much harder though. My investment is practically dust at this stage, even on my own characters, but that's more that I slipped past critical mass and I can't even keep everything straight anymore.

So... I want to do a group project with you guys and I'm looking to do it mainly for fun and I'm not super concerned with making it official or anything, I just want to work with everybody again, when they have time.

The idea that has been knocking around my brain is pretty simple. We do some character driven world building. We start with characters and any new details that get added as we go, we roll with.

My starting point, as the title may suggest, is Camelot.
My idea is very simple then. We design a group reminiscent of the Knights of the Round Table, but we make each duo colored for 10 figures.
And what we opt for with the King Arthur figure is colorless.
That's my idea and I'm opening everything up to participation or even just commentary, whatever level of engagement you feel like giving even if it's just conversation.

I don't remember the last time one of our group projects actually saw completion, but I'm willing to give it a shot.

I will say that I really don't want to base the knights too heavily on the actual Knights of the Round Table, as that is one of my chief complaints about canon, with how much they lean on real-world material and just re-skin it. I think it might be easy to say that the knight will be a Mordred-type character, is Galahad, and so forth. I would want to avoid that.

Yeah, that's why I'm setting the bar pretty low to what I can completion on this. 11 characters and some vague background doesn't seem too hard an ask.

You and I are in total agreement about that, absolutely.

Speaking of Mordred, does anybody else find it weird that nobody seems to mention he and Gawain are brothers?

Anyway, I've been turning it over in my head and I'm torn between the colorless thing being the actual King, making it a creature, or to go along with an artefact to fill the concept space of something like Caledfwlch.

I'm personally intrigued by a central colorless creature, even tho ofc I wouldn't be against an artifact. Why not both? Like, an artifact creature of legendary might the other knights both want to serve and influence? It does give strong Quest for Karn vibes even as I type it, but there might be smth interesting there.

Judging by our dwarven sapper, I'd say it depends on how detailed you expect them to be

I've been letting the idea kind of tumble in my mind, and there would be something kind of interesting in sort of combining the concept of the Lady of the Lake, King Arthur, and the weapon itself all into a colorless package.
What has crossed my mind being that maybe the Knights in this are the council that rules and the artefact they possess is something like a possessed item, a spirit mind that inhabits anybody that picks up the artefact, so the day to day ruling is more or less fine, but in times of crisis they have to become the avatar of the king and it's a responsibility that the council chooses a nominee for.

That's kind of the thought that has tumble polished in my brain, at least.

Of course, with a premise like that, it opens up a LOT of questions about the state of the kingdom, the king, the loyalty of the knights.
I feel like there needs to still be a personal connection with at least the majority of the Knight Council to the king, so it isn't a nebulous public duty that the knights assume, it's a commitment they've made to the memory of someone.

It sort of reminds me of the vague idea I set up for my plane of Daymir (which was Blink's home plane as briefly visited in "Eye for an Eye" and "Seeker's Point"). In Daymir, or at least the area Blink was originally from, is ruled by something referred to only as "It's Majesty." I always sort of assumed (headcanon for my own plane) was that it was some sort of artifact creature, more or less immortal, who ruled over the populace, like some computer from the original Star Trek or something.

Which makes me think of Star Trek initially, but that eventually devolves into the Femputer on the Amazon Planet of Futurama.

Part of me thinks we could also maybe do something like the Kingfisher here, maybe a MaRo spirit of the kingdom itself, but I think that skews a bit too green.
As far as cards go, I do want to crib a bit from Sisay, Weatherlight Captain with the scaling power to colors. Maybe something about devotion?
After a fashion mechanics could inform lore in that.

I actually want to argue against the Mordred equivalent being black-red, even if we have an obvious cognate. I'd like to be held by Lancelot -- a berserker who could only exist driven by his love and intense passion, who thought of himself above the order when he thought at all. Mordred I'd probably set as or possibly even . Certainly, the great traitor is not , but Mordred was driven (depending on the story) by a certain loyalty, holding his family (his mother Morgan at the very least, and possibly his father King Lot in the interpretations where he was not or never knew he was Arthur's son) above his king. I think that closeness to kin is a rather green trait. Especially if we remove the "Traitorous son of the high king" aspect, that degree of devotion shines through. And if we keep it, then there's the nature argument to consider: that is, the interpretation, as is common of some of the later premodern summations of the Arthur myth that Mordred was bad and doomed to be bad because he was conceived in this incestuous liaison (unknowing on at least one part though it was), and thus was doomed to his role from birth. That's his tragedy in some cases and that reads far more green than red to me.

Essentially, in my mind the Mordred who is loyal only to his mother, the devotee of family even when it means forsaking his oaths and betraying his king, is the Mordred. The Mordred who was bad because he was born bad, the cursed child of incest condemned to follow a villainous path because of the negative karma of his conception, is the Mordred.

I would have considered for the "Loyalty, but highly specific" side, except I feel that slot belongs to a figure like unto Agravain: The hard, arrogant, uncharitable, and sharp-tongued yet still chivalrous and loyal, who for his own selfish reasons yet in respect of his king laid down his life to prove Lancelot's betrayal.

~~~

As for the king, going off the Maro Spirit idea, I remember the Fisher King. The Fisher King is the protector and physical embodiment of his kingdom. When the land ails, so does he, and vise versa. The king and kingdom are intrinsically tied as one. To that end, I think perhaps our Arthur should be a unification of the traditional Arthur and the Fisher King, a once-mortal who achieved some manner of ascension to become intrinsically one with the kindgom. He is colorless, because he is the reflection of the land, and the land holds all colors in balance. It is all part of him, so there is no favorite or more defined self he may hold above all others. Rather than Devotion, I think he would care about Domain. A fitting ability word for a king.

~~

Backing away from the myths for a bit, a subject on which I know entirely too much, I want to know what the roles of the kinghts are here. Because the traditional knights of the round table, they were representatives and champions, they didn't need to have specialist roles because they had their roots in historical geopolitics. But for our exercise, I think it would be best if we had some idea of what each of the knights did for the court aside from being a badass. And I think that might give us a better leaping-off point for our colors. Not necessarily formal roles, mind you, though some could be, but roles all the same. My thoughts would have these

: the Advisor, a voice of reason
: the Prophet, steeped in secrets
: the Mad Dog, a double-edged sword
: the Reveler, fond of brawl and drink
: the Quester, a source of good PR
: the Chancellor, a pitiless administrator
: the General, an inspiration to others
: the Jester, a capricious force of who only the King knows all
: the Spiritualist, one wise in the ways of the fae and primal
: the Keeper, who reminds all of the old ways and old powers not yet dead

Of course, this is a very back of the envelope sketch.

I shall, for the time being, forgo talking about the Arthurian legends, not because I think they aren't worth discussing, but rather because I'm limited in my ability to respond and responding would require the commitment to do well.


I would envision this as being some time after the event that would parallel Arthur being laid to rest upon Avalon.
But I think we can safely nail down that the likely creature type would be either avatar or incarnation.
For my part, I do tend to prefer avatar, but what that would mean for the setting in the minutia is different than the aerial view.
Though incarnation does have a history of graveyard interaction, so that would be more lore fitting at least.


There are some good guidelines, here, though a few I think I'd rather see rearranged.
Though it may be borrowing on characters and archetypes, somewhere between three colors, I'd kind of like to see a trio cast in the shape of characters from Dune, at least in function. A Thufir, Gurney, and Duncan.
WU as the advisor seems ideal for our Thufir stand in, but given Gurney, I think since elements of the Jester and the General could mesh to play opposite. The WR Bones to WU's Spock.

It may also be cliche, but UB wants to be a Spider so much. Rather than anything mystical, UB as the Spymaster is just a function of the kingdom that wants to be filled.

Other than that, I like the idea of the Keeper, but I think WB feels equally valid for the function.

Beyond all that, I suppose some idea of what creature types are on the board would benefit us.
I personally envision Elves as being present, besides the humans.

Sudden inspiration took me, minor as it is.
The crest of the king shall be a silver Leotau with black mane and leopard spots.

So, while I was trying to sleep, I had a thought about this, and sort of why Eldraine isn't just it.

Camelot is a moment. Part of the beauty of it is that it's ephemeral, a collection of legendary heroes the likes of which had not been assembled before and could not be assembled again. It lasted only a single human lifetime in part because its constituent members were all peerless and despite efforts to the contrary essentially irreplaceable. It has more in common with the Weatherlight Saga than it does with Eldraine in some senses, and most of the most poignant interpretations of Camelot focus on the loss and the inevitability of its downfall. It's a moment, that must come and go as moments do.

But there's good reason to not want to do that here. If we're trying to make a setting, we want the idea that the setting's main traits are at least somewhat enduring, if not on the fanciful time scale of the planes, like Ravnica's guilds lasting for ten thousand years, than at least on the scale of nation-states that have been around and look to be around for multiple life-spans. How, then, to capture some of this idea of the truly unique confluence of heroes?

I think the "knights" should also be severed from their mortality if the king is an immortal being. Each one is someone who was unique and special enough to be chosen, and to be given that gift and made to join the rest because they were awesome, and in the process they've been set apart from the people they represent and rule. In some cases, this is probably a good thing for their experience. In other cases, some would find their severance to be something of a bitter fate, to be called to serve the Eternal Round Table rather than living and dying as a person.

Instead of being all the best people who all happened to be around for the same event, like the canon Round Table or the Argonauts, this round table is all the best people plucked from an era of rulership. They are truly without peer or equal, and they'll all have sprawling stories of their own. It would make them feel big and mythic if they have neither predecessors nor successors.

And I think we could get some pathos out of the fact as well. especially if it's not just that they don't age, but that they can't die. Not while their king still reigns, they'll be recalled and recalled to their posts, the gift and curse of immortality.

~~

On the other notes... yeah, UB does really want to be the Spider. I was deliberately trying to avoid it, but a spymaster's a good thing to have at court.

For the color identity of "the Keeper" I think I lensed it black-green because my mental image was "creepy weird skull hat druid knight". Like, the Spiritualist is the one who knows all about the Lady and her ways and wants to be the bridge between the natural world and human reason, the Keeper recalls a time before ordering, both wild and dark. That was my headspace on the matter.

Aesthetics aside, I think that function is still much more suited for the Spiritualist (whom, incidentally, I would probably revive the Mystic creature type for)
Someone who is deep into the Mysteries, including the old lore.
The Keeper, on the other hand, at least the way your description flowed to me, sounds like someone that honors the fallen or the past in a more ritual sense. A being that is set apart because he keeps the crypts of both men and lore. That's probably shaded pretty heavily by a specific Green Lantern character that I know of.
 

The worst part of Eldraine is that it's made of scraps leftover from Lorwyn and Bant, stitched together by the New Design Order they've been living in since Theros.
Theros turned out to be Wizard's Camlann (though I still think the rot set in before that).


I'm... a bit split on this. I definitely see the merit, and there's some ideas there worth exploring in an elevator pitch alone. One could argue that the heroics that earned them their seats were on the merits of their sagas, which opens up the definition of "immortality" pretty wide.*

But there's something of it that I would find we would lose if we didn't have a couple members getting longer and longer in tooth. The knights clinging to their glory though they've no longer the skill or ability to live in the halcyon of their own legends.**

* There's an anime by Ken Akamatsu, the guy that did Love Hina that toys with precisely this kind of space: UQ Holder.
It's about a, for lack of better term, yakuza group composed entirely of immortals, be they cursed men or ageless monsters. The diversity of their immortality and the fact they don't all operate on strictly the same rules is one of the more interesting parts of the property, and I could very much see that being the case here.

** This, admittedly, is probably a shard of "The Adventures of Baron Munchhausen" that's stuck with me.

The idea of Camelot as a moment of time didn't a lot of time turning over in my head today, and I think I have part of the idea for the inciting incident that would be driving the conflict in the story.
We seem to have landed in the possibility of the Fisher king as a part of the inspiration here, and the idea I have is what if the lands at the furthest fringes of the kingdom are slowly being consumed by mists?
And the reasoning came from this quote that appeared in my head, spoken in the most Scottish brogue you can muster:
"Every day comes to a close and with each dawn, I look into the eyes of my friend and see a little less of the man."

Aside from that, I've been brainstorming various Canon references to achieving immortality in the magic setting, of at least a sense of agelessness.

I think if we go that angle, there's at least one knight I think should be a revenant, already dead, but held in this world.
There's always the Fountain of Youth.
I do want at least, probably, two of the knights to be elves, so they get an automatic inclusion.
And lastly, a reference to the dlc of Duels of the Planeswalkers, a draught of potion made of White Dragon Scales.

I think one of the aspects of what I'm struggling with is the idea of not playing to type, since that's something I always try to avoid.
Unfortunately, the other side to that coin is not fighting what feels natural either, so that's what has slowed progress from me when it comes to the project.

Yeah, that always has a tension, and doubly so when there's an aspect of emulation.

There's always a pull to re-create. But there's also a need not to. We've seen what happens when a creative force gives us "Literally the thing we wanted to reference" rather than "A new thing inspired by this other thing."

To that end, I think I become detail oriented. I like the idea of the kingdom being swallowed up by mists, like the King that has reigned so long is finally wearing thin in some aspect, if not degeneracy through age then at least creeping inhumanity, as you suggest.

I'm also tangentially reminded of the Lost Kingdoms game series (as the first game featured a mysterious black fog swallowing everything up. And the games had a card system of play and recognizable colors... But that's about as connected to what we're talking about here as either would be to The Neverending Story.

So part of me wants to try to create some kernels of either plot or character, possibly even in obnoxious detail.

I may get on that, for a random choice. Create some pieces and let the context in which they exist start to flow naturally.

A part of me is also reluctant to fully commit to something without any degree of feedback, because, after all, I opted to make it a group project for a reason.

I think the mists closing in on the fringes of the kingdom, and the further encroachment is probably the central catalyst and issue at hand, though the idea that anyone knows that it's because the king is wearing thin rather than vice versa is probably going to be something of the wham moment. I think a couple of the ten knights probably suspect that it isn't the land that is causing the problem, but the king, but most of them probably enjoy a certain degree of resilience in their immortality that they don't recognize that others aren't faring quite as well in their own version of it.

So, with that in mind, it makes me believe there are probably outside forces that are exploiting the mists and they're believed to be the cause of them. Even possibly two antagonistic forces, even we want to try to get spicy.

Outside all that, I might take a stab at a knight or two. Partly I'm still trying to work out some of the larger moving pieces, though I am inclined more and more to not deviate TOO far from baseline human as the default body shape. I just think animal people may stick out a bit much, but I've also been toying with the more... interesting possibilities for mounts outside horses.
Obviously, Leotau are a thing I want featured, but the more oddities, such as even possibly dinosaurs or something, gives us some wilder choices that could impact the cultures at play within the kindgom.
I'm also not above distilling some concepts into it, such as Charlemagne's paladins as well, to cast the net slightly more broadly European since, realistically, Camelot even as an aesthetic was never true to medieval life either.
Definitely want to aim for that uniquely verdant land, those golden fields, but I'm imagining everything to be more saturated, more archetypical than Britannia as history would have you see it. (I mean, part of that is the uniquely Celtic influences that either the Romans or the Saxons hammered out but were somehow preserved in spirit within the myths.)
In that regard, it might not be a bad idea to borrow on some aesthetics of Robin Hood either, as that plays in some of the same conceptual visual space and would help further depart from the slavish homage of the Round Table specifically, and help set some idea of history since Camelot was, as you say, a moment and this kingdom has lasted the breadth of a nation's age as is.


... It occurs to me, the king's name would be a smart place to start, even moreover than the kingdom's name.

Curious, why should the king be colorless instead of 5-c?

The sliver queen is 5-c, ruling over all assorted color brood. Colorless is generally artifacts, Eldrazi, or the occasional spirit. Seems off for an Arthur stand in.

Incidentally, I do hope to read through what you guys have so far fairly soon here, time and motivation allowed, but it's honestly been a rough few weeks for a variety of reasons, and I need to get caught up with work before I can start wading deeply into this.

I mean, part of the discussion was centered around the idea it might be an artifact or spirit to start with.
For my justification, I feel like I'd want to go colorless to show both the aspects of transcendence as well as inhumanity.
It's a king who has become something both more and less than human. Five color, besides already being kind of done with Kenrith, is still grounded in the mortal experience fundamentally.

we're not going anywhere buddy. Take whatever time you need if you want to weigh in.
And importantly, remember that we're here for you if you ever need anything.