No Goblins Allowed
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Mature Content
http://862838.jrbdt8wd.asia/viewtopic.php?f=19&t=243		 Page 1 of 2
Author:  KeeperofManyNames [ Thu Sep 26, 2013 9:51 pm ]
Post subject:  Mature Content
So, now that we don't have the threat of existential annihilation looming over us due to Wizards' ability to pull the plug on our group if we misbehave too badly, I think it's time to revisit the issue of mature content within the Expanded Multiverse and how we should handle it.

There's a few main issues that I can see.

One is that our content should broadly agree with the CoC. However, it's possible that content restrictions could be relaxed for this project, as there's a fundamental difference between posting random pornography and exploring sexuality within an artistic context. Given that there is violence and sexual content in the source material we're working from, it's worth at least talking about what we do and don't feel ok with including. I'd like to get Deckhopper in here again to talk about M:EM:NSFW and whether he wants to do anything with that, or whether that kind of content is acceptable for the main M:EM.

Another is that new posters might not be aware of content restrictions, and immediately dropping the hammer on them works against our aims of inviting new creative folks in and helping them to improve. It might be to our advantage to allow for discussion of explicit works if only to prevent censorship that, I think, ultimately would weaken the group.

I'm sure there's other stuff I'm not thinking of. This is part of a wider discussion about the role of mature content on the boards, and it's probably worth checking the other discussion out to see some of the arguments that have already been made.

So, thoughts? What is the future fate of Jace//Bolas lemonfics on this board?
Author:  jedi8187 [ Thu Sep 26, 2013 10:58 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Mature Content
I tend to err on the side of "follow the rules of the board". So what's this board's position?

I know I'm kind of a stick in the mud.
Author:  RavenoftheBlack [ Thu Sep 26, 2013 11:01 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Mature Content
For me, I just think it's important that anything that would fall under "mature content" be the exception to the rule.
Author:  Yxoque [ Fri Sep 27, 2013 2:58 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Mature Content
jedi8187 wrote:
I tend to err on the side of "follow the rules of the board". So what's this board's position?

I know I'm kind of a stick in the mud.

The position of the board is still unclear in this matter. But seeing as how our resident mod probably wouldn't care either way, I don't see much policing on the matter happening here.

@My position: I don't want to discourage anyone's genuine artistic vision, but lemon fics with the names of planeswalkers inserted aren't something I'm interested in.

If your story needs sex, you write sex. If your story needs violence, you write violence. If it needs both at the same time, go see a doctor you write that. But if you just want to come here and write smutty fanfiction about Jace and Kallist, I'm not sure that we need to support that.
Author:  RavenoftheBlack [ Fri Sep 27, 2013 9:37 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Mature Content
Yxoque wrote:
If your story needs sex, you write sex. If your story needs violence, you write violence. If it needs both at the same time, go see a doctor you write that. But if you just want to come here and write smutty fanfiction about Jace and Kallist, I'm not sure that we need to support that.

I had written up a much longer, much less clear version of almost precisely this philosophy, but deleted it because I didn't like how it sounds.

In other words, I agree with you, Yxoque, and well put.
Author:  jedi8187 [ Fri Sep 27, 2013 2:18 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Mature Content
In lack of guidelines from the board as a whole then I third Yxo's thing.

I mean the occasional one done strictly for humor might not be too bad. But I certainly don't want it to me even a full percentage of what we do. That's not the rep I want the project to have.
Author:  Yxoque [ Fri Sep 27, 2013 2:46 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Mature Content
jedi8187 wrote:
I mean the occasional one done strictly for humor might not be too bad. But I certainly don't want it to me even a full percentage of what we do. That's not the rep I want the project to have.


Yeah, the occasional one wouldn't bother me at all, even if it is done in earnest. But we can easily keep out the bad ones by applying the same stringent criteria we apply to anything else. A canon-defiling JacexChandra is something we can easily keep out, while JacexLiliana isn't as much of a problem.

And now I've started thinking about Liliana/Kallist/Jace.
Author:  Lord LunaEquie is me [ Fri Sep 27, 2013 6:41 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Mature Content
Just to add a voice to the mix:

I'm pretty ambivalent on the whole thing; I would judge it on a case-by-case basis. While I'm not against the idea on principle, it's just not something I'm really interested in reading... At least not here.
I... kind of burned myself by reading what I realize now boiled down to harlequin-romance-genre-fanfiction (though I won't say which fandom). I've been extremely reluctant to read anything other than a purposely over-the-top ridiculous slash fic (comedy, in other words) since then.

So what I'm really saying is that I won't object, but you probably won't see me comment and/or vote on any of them.
Author:  RuwinReborn [ Sat Sep 28, 2013 5:16 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Mature Content
I'm going to weigh in and say go for it, but I have a few things I would like to add.

It's sort of difficult to justify describing the act of sex as part of your narrative. Most of the time, when reading a work, I run across anywhere from a few paragraphs to a few pages of (very, very) descriptive sex. I don't have a problem with it - if it's well written, it's well written - but it IS important to remember what sort of effect it has on the pacing of the story. Is the sex relevant to your character's development? Is there some sort of applicable narrative structure that requires the use of sex as a springboard? And, most importantly, can this be accomplished by simply alluding to the actual act (which I'm certain is very passionate and steamy.) and having the characters deal with the ramifications of it later?

This, of course, applies to everything. You describe a specific battle or single combat in great detail because of the weight it has on the story. You should describe a specific sexual act in great detail for the same reason.

Basically, something should only be given as much attention to detail as it has impact on the story, or your risk ruining the pacing. In the case of violence, you make your work needlessly bloody, and in the case of sex, needlessly smutty. It just sort of becomes this roadblock were the narrative is shoving sex in your face and you sort of just have to read through it, wondering when the actual story is going to start again.

Yea, that's about it. Don't sacrifice your narrative for a pound of smut.
Author:  Yxoque [ Sat Sep 28, 2013 11:02 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Mature Content
Continuing on what Ruwin said (and tying in to what I said earlier: I think a lot of 18+ content can be rejected on general merit. Writing sex or strong violence into your story isn't always the best option and we will probably recognize it when that happens.

Unless your story is only sex, but writing good smut is also very hard.
Author:  KeeperofManyNames [ Sat Sep 28, 2013 12:45 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Mature Content
Yeah, I'm pretty much with you guys. My main concern is not immediately shutting down newcomers who don't know the rules/can't recognize that their stuff is Porn/Violence Without Plot, and so on. I'd rather treat them as students than as deviants that need to be punished by Forum Justice or whatever.

For the sake of discussion, do you guys want to talk about Deckhoppers Sorin/Avacyn fic and Barinellos's Bolas/Tezzeret fic? I think they both pass the basic quality test that we're looking for with flying colors, but the content might be another story.

Thoughts?
Author:  Yxoque [ Sat Sep 28, 2013 12:57 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Mature Content
As I said before, I don't think our mod really cares enough to remove that content here. Maybe we should clearly label that sort of stuff. Maybe our mod should ask Management.

I haven't actually read Bolas/Tezzeret because I like my brain.

It's been a while since I read Sorin/Avacyn, but I can't remember anything about it that would make it a bad fit, apart from being about canon characters and probably not their actual relationship. Maybe something for the Omniverse.
Author:  jedi8187 [ Sat Sep 28, 2013 2:24 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Mature Content
I have read bolas/tezzeret, I have chosen to forget anything else about it. Including my own insanity.

Never read sorrin/avacyn.
Author:  KeeperofManyNames [ Sun Sep 29, 2013 9:57 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Mature Content
Here's the Avacyn/Sorin story: http://memnsfw.tumblr.com/post/46905697 ... els-master

I don't think I have a copy of Barinellos's story anywhere... Where is he, anyway? Dude should have an opinion on this.
Author:  Lord LunaEquie is me [ Sun Sep 29, 2013 5:41 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Mature Content
KeeperofManyNames wrote:
Here's the Avacyn/Sorin story: http://memnsfw.tumblr.com/post/46905697 ... els-master

I don't think I have a copy of Barinellos's story anywhere... Where is he, anyway? Dude should have an opinion on this.

Doing the thing in Atlanta, isn't he? With Thoctar and all? That was my impression, anyway.
Author:  KeeperofManyNames [ Sun Sep 29, 2013 11:07 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Mature Content
Oh right, duh. Thanks.
Author:  GobO_Ravenclaw [ Thu Oct 03, 2013 3:33 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Mature Content
I've just made a post to Management about this. I'll keep you all updated.
Author:  KeeperofManyNames [ Thu Oct 03, 2013 5:07 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Mature Content
Thanks, Raven of the Black who definitely runs that mod account.
Author:  Lord LunaEquie is me [ Thu Oct 03, 2013 6:35 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Mature Content
KeeperofManyNames wrote:
Thanks, Raven of the Black who definitely runs that mod account.

You dummy, it's one word; "RavenoftheBlack"

Incidentally, I love how we tend to refer to the Archivist in a separate-entity type manner. I have loads of fun with it since I'm the named Archivist.
Author:  Tevish Szat [ Thu Oct 03, 2013 7:25 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Mature Content
Honestly? "Mature Content" is something I've struggled with, and I've found that there are lines. Occasionally a story NEEDS gore, or some degree of sexuality as in keeper's "R Rated" examples on the "Welcome Home" thread. Sometimes it is right for a character to cuss or engage in unsightly deeds.

But I don't think that unless it is the point of the story (ie, porn) you ever really need explicit sex. Being able to go R-rated, that's one thing. NC-17? I think it might be possible to go there and maintain artistic integrity, but I don't think you are ever under an obligation to go there in order to maintain artistic integrity. If a story is worth telling as a story, it can be told at R or below.

But in text, there isn't a sharp line dividing R and NC-17. Some things are clearly on one side or the other, but it's a fuzzy line, and I'm sure it's a fuzzy line that will be challenged some times. I think, in general, we can probably set a rule against explicit sexual content (things that live deep in NC-17 land) in open forums and the main archives at least. But for things that approach the line, we're going to have to decide on a case by case basis where art ends and prurient interests begin. We'll always have to decide this on a case by case basis. If Justice Potter Stewart and the Supreme Court alongside him had to go with "I know it when I see it" as their definition of ban-worthy materials, I don't think there's any shame in taking that stance ourselves.
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