This subforum has 30 pages. Most of them are of little importance today, being about past issues or stories already archived and celebrated. But when I came here - Three years and a half ago? ...Huh. - I remember following conversations about pieces and characters I had no clue about, despite having read most of the Archive. In these 30 pages of threads, there is many a thread with content that deserves to be easily accessible to newcomers, or veterans who want to read those old goodies again. I want to use this first post as an Archive for all the gems that for one reason or the other won't be entered in the Archives, like the various prompt threads, OL's weekly writing challenge, the ANGELSONG romp and so on. Ideally, a finished and more official version of this could be stickied for posterity.

I'll try to retrieve most links myself, but if anyone remembers old stuff that should be kept close at hand for whatever reason, expecially from the times before my arrival here, help is more than welcome.

[Done: rather exhaustive look at the non-story/dossier threads. Welcoming suggestions for gems hidden in threads, especially non-creative ones]

Note: personal threads are signaled by putting the name of its "owner" after the link.

Section One: Creative threads
The following threads feature at least one original creative work, be it verse or prose, snippet or multi-chapter, music or game, card or art. They may be alternate universes or parodies (the kind that goes beyond word-switching); thought experiments are also included.










Section Two: Information and shop talk
The following threads feature information about canon characters and their development as well as shop talk. Note that Q&As can contain info belonging to the three previous sections.







Section Three: Assorted silliness
Song parodies? Random plot prompts? Whimsical games? Don't worry, we got 'em all.





Section Four: Miscellanea
Whatever doesn't fit in anywhere else. The least organized section.


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This should totally be a sticky thread.

Any seconds for this motion?


Also, I should congratulate you on a great idea, Huey, and also add in my two cents that the holiday specials (that aren't in the archive) should be included.

Aye!

This also reminds me that I should start a Q&A thread some time.

I combed till page 10, approaching the period when I joined; any input on how to catalogue entries? I'd like to have a system where people aren't forced to check 120 links for they thing they were looking for, but barring putting a quick summary (like author + a dozen words about the content when not obvious <- quicker to do but would maybe be weird to look at) I'm not sure on how to do that.

Also, I have the strong urge to edit the first post to have a more official look if it's to be sticky-ed, any suggestion for a more suitable intro? (I'd leave the original introduction in a spoiler at the end/beginning)

EDIT (also added to 1st post): Some threads, particularly the ones of incomplete projects, won't be added in this stage. Things may change with feedback.

My combing arrived to Page 16, well before I learned of the M:EM. It's... an unsettling experience. Reading transcripts of past conversations, excitement and worry about what now are done things... ahem. Let's get to business.

I'm currently linking basically every non-narrative and/or non-canon thread I can spot, and the number of links is starting to be both unwieldy and staggering. I'm linking everything to avoid having to look for them in the future, but some questions come to mind:
1. Has someone better ideas to dividing links for ease of use?
2. Should there be a distinction, like a more curated list of more M:EMorable threads, and a less refined bulk of threads that would only be useful for people sifting through the sands of time for some reason?

Giving things a cursory glance, I think maybe a distinction could be made over some memorable works that have every potential to be part of the archive (e.g. The Weight of a Soul), and the stuff that was posted for fun or a one-off joke (e.g. Rav Star by Smashing Mouths). Like, I definitely applaud you doing the work here, but I feel like some of these really should be remembered more than others.

I'd have to really take my time sifting through them to get an idea how to do that, but seeing as I have some time off coming up at the end of the month, maybe I'll make some time for that.

Oh, and I noticed these typos:

Thank you for the feedback! Next time I'll make a quick check and mark the threads I consider more important and think of a suitable way to split the archives. (I had started linking everything when Raven said he had sifted the forum for a suitable game to bring back from the graveyard)

New categorization. Should pieces that got NAId be listed here? Examples:

viewtopic.php?f=45&t=7520
viewtopic.php?f=45&t=6212
viewtopic.php?f=45&t=7524
viewtopic.php?f=45&t=7525
viewtopic.php?f=45&t=7521

The Inferno Amulet would deserve a mention IMO, but I'm not feeling like making these kind of decisions on my own.

It is done.

...no, not really. But I got to the end of the 32 pages and picked the links (the last block of them are still in the To Be Sorted "folder") of all the non-story, non-dossier threads that looked relevant for posterity.

...but that's the point, isn't it? Who gets to decide what is reM:EMbered? Thus I ask your opinion on the following subjects:

-Non-archived stories and dossiers that are not meant to be non-canon. AKA the ones that were either never submitted or denied archiving.
-Business threads from the early days. I grabbed the link of the inaugural post, the power grabs of the M:EMperors and a few things that IMO had historic value, so to speak, but what about the rest? Are there other events or discussions that deserve M:EMory?
-Business threads about project like anthologies.
-Having a cleaner selection of the old gems? Who decides what gets in?
-Having a sticky thread: I wouldn't sticky this but rather link this to the polished thread if we decide to keep this as a backlog and/or comprehensive list.
-How to organize the to-be-stickied thread.

Non M:EMbers are invited to weigh in as well, though M:EMbers would of course have the last word in the case there's a significant divide.

Lots of work here, Huey. Thanks! You certainly wouldn't have needed to do all of that, and I certainly appreciate the effort.


I'll weigh in, though everything I have to say is solidly in the "pure opinion" realm. I do not have the answers to these questions.


This is something I've struggled with in my own Stark Raven Mad thread. I have *most* of what I've written creatively in this project there, but there are numerous, small stories that I do not bother to include in that list, mostly those that would fit your description here. For instance, I don't think I put any of the M:EM High School stuff that I've written in there. But I do have clearly non-canon stuff like M:EM: The Musical, Ravnica: Chain of Events, and my MST3k-ified piece in there, so I don't even have consistency there.

I can see a potential value in documenting the works that were never put up for vote, especially as a sort of idea bank, things we could pick up or retool in the future. There is also a potential value in having a clear record of what did not pass the vote but tried, although that could just as easily result in the wrong kind of tone.


I see where you are coming from with the history of the project, and some of them might be interesting to reread to see what we were thinking at the time, but I'm not convinced these need to be saved as links. The threads still exist, and NGA has a pretty good search feature (I'm STILL, after seven frickin' years, still bitter at just how bad the search feature was on the old boards...grumble...grumble...), so if we ever needed it for some reason or were curious about it, we could still find them. Mostly, I just can't imagine too many people stumbling across the project and being curious about that kind of thing, though that might just be me.


We finished up work on the Innistrad anthology over here, but most of the anthologies we've discussed here never got off the ground, right? I mean, there's the Legends of the Wastes that Orcish and Ruwin wrote and Luna stalwartly put together, but again, I feel people are more likely to be interested in the anthology itself rather than the business behind it, but I could, as always, be wrong.


This is a very good idea and something we should probably do, especially as a "first entry" into the project for anyone who is interested. As for who makes the call, anyone who wants to, I suppose. If you want to take the lead on a project to arrange that, I would certainly support the idea!


As the person who pushed for the index thread in the Archive, I'm in favor of this. I don't remember how we sticky a thread, but I'm sure either the Archivist account or a mod could do that. I like the idea of having a "table of contents" of sorts.


That...is a very good question. I'll need to think about it.

I'm just gonna point out now that in several points you mostly consider the position of someone who was actually here for all of this. I was not, and as such this archive isn't just a memory aid or a source of inspiration but a discovery of things I didn't know existed.


Would you say the pieces you haven't included in Stark Raven Mad shouldn't be linked here? As in, they're unworthy of archiving or you have reasons against their archiving? Because I get that someone could be ashamed of their own work or prefer that it wouldn't be remembered, but... they decided to share it here. Especially for people not around to discuss it, I'd remain on the side that everyone's work should be archived (we prolly need a word for "archiving in the non-Archive archive") unless under specific request of the author. (and even that, I'd keep a line to point out the author denied the archiving, but that might be a bit of a dick move)


For that reason I wouldn't differentiate the failed votes from the pieces that were never submitted and just link the original thread. Since I suspect that would still be a pretty large number of stories, I'd divide them by author, which... might result in a weird perspective for some authors?


Maybe not for someone who lived that? But while not a subject that kept me up at night, I was curious about the project's history (which some threads paint in a rather dramatic light which attracts curiosity, btw) and I wouldn't have any idea about what to search for that except for going straight for the oldest thread pages and comb those. Having a few select threads to give an idea of the shape the project had years ago would be enough for me.


I agree, but since some of those threads were 4+ pages long there was the chance something interesting was buried there (I skimmed threads but didn't close-read them for hidden gems)


I could try to read through everything, but it would take A LOT of time. I may do that in time, when this archive has a more functional shape and I have a more defined idea about what might interest me and what may not, but still your memory would help. Like, what old threads your remember fondly? Even and especially if you don't remember their exact contents. Like, I had no idea that a non-canon story about Aloise's birthday existed until it was linked (or maybe it was posted soon after my arrival?) and in that story, I had NO CLUE about who the hell Raef was* those are two links that should make it to the finished archive IMO. Which other threads contained similar stories or information that would be useful or cool to have at hand for someone that mostly archive-dives? I feel like every M:EMber could post any thread they'd recommend newcomers/archive lurkers to check out, that would already be a good spot to start: a selection from the M:EMbers, by the M:EMbers!

*And while the search function is good, you try to get an idea about who a character is just from their name... in a subforum where the Random Plot Generator is a thing


Oh Serra I felt a pit open in my stomach at the idea of stumbling in the Archive and have no easy way to follow characters and authors. Thank you so much.


That...is a very good question. I'll need to think about it.[/quote]
Yes, that's not an easy one. In my opinion, the final version has a few necessary sections:
-threads with lots of characterization and content (I Called This Meeting and Long Story Short)
-well-loved non-canon pieces and threads (Aloise's birthday, M:EM High School, ANGELSONG)
-a few historical threads for project perspective
More niche things that can still have a significant lure:
-non archived stories (either failed votes or never submitted)
-forum games (maybe you feel like reviving a game and need a refresher? Wanna come up with a new one and need inspiration? Planning to do some old school necromancy?*)
-art (There's an old thread with Keeper's art coming from a Google Drive whose links are broken and my heart broke too at the realization. You yourself said you loved the Rulus' rendition in one of them)
-M:EM as X (indirect characterization and, in card threads, ties between writing and game)
-discontinued stories and worldbuilding
-Less impactful or beloved examples of the "necessary" sections

*Ah, this reminds me. Someone was surprised when I necrod the 50 word fiction thread. But writing prompts should never be considered necromancy IMHO. Why would you make a Part 2 of a creative thread 2-5 pages long? (especially without a link to the old one, but that is beside the point)

Fair point, definitely.


No, I haven't excluded anything from Stark Raven Mad because of quality issues, it more that I've just been incredibly inconsistent with what I have included. Mostly, I suppose, it's out of laziness. I've already edited that post ~checks quickly~ 146 times, so going in and re-editing it for something I just quickly throw together, or something I put up right before I retire for the evening (that phrasing amuses me for some reason) seems like an unnecessary step. Maybe someday, when I'm bored, I'll go through and find the things I don't have on there and put them in with a single, big edit, but considering I imagine I'm the only one who used the Stark Raven Mad thread with any regularity (or at all) I just don't consider it a priority.

As for your question, though, it sounds like you're leaning towards, essentially, including everything, which I suppose does have the benefit of not having to make any sort of judgment call on what to or not to include.


That makes sense. And for those who are still around, it might provide an opportunity to see what still isn't canon.


Sure, and as you pointed out at the beginning, this is a matter of perspective. Having been through it, and involved in many of them in one manner or another, I'm bound to look at them differently. I just have no idea how I would pick which ones to keep. For instance, there is a thread I made as an interest check for what would become the Highlighted M:EMories thread...and then there is the Highlighted M:EMories thread. They potentially contextualize each other in a possibly interesting way. But then again, does the existence of the latter make the former obsolete? I really don't have answers to these questions.


Yeah, there definitely is some interesting stuff buried in some of those. I wrote a poem called "The Darkness," which I'm quite fond of, actually, that is buried in Tevish's Minutes to Midnight thread. So I definitely see your argument.


Sure, I didn't mean to suggest that you do it by yourself, only that, since you expressed the interest, you take point on the project, so to speak. Aloise's Birthday is a piece that Orcish mentions from time to time as being one of his favorite non-canon pieces he's ever written, and was very much a product of its time, as it was written near when Barinellos was putting together Legacies (I think that's the title of the Raef multi-part story. I honestly can't remember if that got changed or not). But Barinellos had also just recently written the first part of a story ("Drifting Lights," I think it was called) that was going to feature Aamir, Aloise, and Raef that ended up getting nixed for a variety of reasons.

But that leads to one of the major problems with this project in general. A large number of the things we write, especially those "lost gems" that are hidden away in other pieces, are really more like "inside jokes" than anything else, and so I just wonder what their appeal would be to new people who come in. It could be very appealing, potentially. Or, because they usually contain a fleet of obscure references, maybe not at all.


I'm glad it helped! I'm a big believer in clear organization for things like that.


Yeah, again, I don't have a good answer. We could potentially just lump everything into categories if we wanted to, but that might be more work than it's worth. We also need to make sure we avoid burnout. When Luna was trying to catalog all of the implications and connections with all of the stories as they went up, it definitely led to burnout, and we wouldn't want that to happen again.


Good point. I feel I've done it both ways at various points!

Exactly. I work under the idea that someone might want to read EVERYTHING a certain author might have written, or EVERYTHING about a certain character.* Which makes me thing that I should eventually get around to tag by character each non-archived piece for ease of navigation?

...yeah, that will be a nasty tangle on its own, compounded by collection threads. I'm focusing on the non-creative threads right now because odds are they're less interconnected and as such require less work to present them in a clear manner.

*I know that too big of a map and you're better off checking the actual thing. Still, a somewhat detailed overlook would be nice.


Good question. I think it may help to keep the two standards in mind: the Spotlight (working title) which will feature threads that are either essential to get a good feel for the project (or are basically considered canon despite not being in the Archive, like Raef*) and/or contain a veritable treasure trove of content, and the Warehouse (again, working title) where things of secondary interest might be stored.

*basically, if a character is in the random plot generator, it's a good idea to have some quick source to learn about them.

By sheer size and content, the highlight thread is IMO has an automatic slot in the Spotlight. (not that I'd keep a hard limit on the number of links) Is, in your opinion, its proposal thread worthy of a spot in the warehouse for historical purposes, or is it more like "hey, whaddaya think?" "Yeah" "Ok" "Damn right" *meme* "Sure" "Nice"? If there was an actual back and forth about a thread that eventually became an integral part of the front page for a long time, I think the mention is noteworthy, if only to see how perspectives have changed.


...yeah, that'd be the kind of thing I'd like to know about. Like, if any or all anthology threads contain (multiple?) pieces that would be impossible to find otherwise, I'd like to at the very least keep a reminder of that in the warehouse.


And by that you mean... that I might do the honors at drafting a first list for the spotlight? I mean, sure. At this point I'm more interested in being sure I'm not missing good stuff by skimming; I'll feel much more confident when the fathoming part is over and it'll just be a matter of organization.


See? This is the kind of thing that would be easy to check up when this effort will reach a decent degree of completion


Most of those obscure references point to other pieces that would be picked up by this archive? And even then, good writing is still good even if it serves obscure in-jokes.


I don't follow. The "best of" of 32 pages will still be quite a few links. At that point, it's easier to decide what categories to prioritize in the Spotlight. The division in the first post is an overzealous one, but it works better for wrangling dozens of links.


It helps that I work without deadlines or even expectations, honestly When I first began this thread I had a random burst of energy and focus to spend on this, and recently I had another so I got through the first pass. For my mindframe, the most useful thing in this regard is breaking down this whole things into somewhat independent tasks so I can feel I'm making significant progress in what I'm doing and get the endorphine kick

I'm going to echo Raven here and applaud you for the massive effort this must have taken. With all my own failed attempts at doing something similar *mumbles something about the wiki*, it's kind of amazing to see you manage to do all this.


You two have already exchanged a lot of words that I could only skim through right now, but I'll weigh in with my own


It would be great to have those, IMO, especially as in recent years I've been leaning more towards wishing for a more open project with a less strict adherence towards everything needing to comply with canon, so that we'd have a place even for things that are meant to be non-canon. Of course, such a vision also depends on having a proper way to host it all with clean separations between stories and comments, but the point is that I'd want it all instead of having anyone make judgement calls.


I'm not really sure I have an opinion on this one way or the other. On the one hand, it kind of makes sense that you'd want to have that record around somewhere, and maybe someday have an accurate record of the little blip we made on the 'net, but on the other hand I rarely care about reading such things myself and don't see much use in them.


As one of the main ones involved in such a project, I would love this to be kept around in some manner, if for nothing else than to see the "bonus content" that went into it.

As an aside, I'm sorry that I lost all steam towards continuing to make such anthologies. It's been years ago now that I had been talking with Tevish to get Illarion Vale's story into one anthology, and I'm still guilt-ridden that I never finished that, much less "on time."


I'm not sure what "old gems" are in this instance? It seems you and Raven are talking about a shortlist of greatest hits, sort of like a "newcomers start here" thing? If so I think we've had that topic come up once or twice before, though I couldn't tell you where; it might be worth starting up another thread to get people's nominations for such a list.


That sounds pretty okay to me, though it does sound like it would be work maintaining it, and I managed to burn myself out on the M:EM multiple times by taking on such maintenance work. Oh, and the Archivist account can sticky threads; it might be worth giving you the account details.

Less work than it might seem, as especially for the second part of the run I skipped anything story-shaped and that's the vast majority of threads, and when in doubt I grabbed the link to worry about its relevancy later. The second pass will be quite the undertaking.


The Spotlight could be this, to an extent: a place to store stories that are worthy of a recommendation but not compliant with either MtG or M:EM canon. Without making it an additional subsection or having to repost everything, some decent system of annotated links could do the trick. As in [Aloise, Beryl, Daneera, non-canon fun] for a Double Date thread, for example? Like, a quick list to the important items starred in the piece and the level of canon-compliance to set the distance from the official Archive? We have time to brainstorm that. I mean, look at how much time has taken for me to return to this after the first burst of activity


Definitely keeping an eye out for that.


Not to be a fake wise guy and offer unsolicited advice, but some steam might return if you learn how to stop beating yourself up for it. If guilt, responsibility and expectations means zero results, just messing around for the sake of having a good time might go somewhere you're glad to follow? I know it's WAY easier said than done, though, and not knowing how you specifically speak/think about yourself and your efforts my choice of words might sound like complete nonsense It's just that some of the things you said resonate with the way I burned myself out of university. As an ex-engineering student, I lost most of the draw scientific wonder had for me. I'm getting precious bits back with time, but... it's slow going.

I'll stop before heading even more into TMI territory.


If you believe it may help, may I ask you to open said thread? When I make the second pass I'll keep an eye out for promising thread titles in that direction.


Once the massive backlog has been sorted the Showcase should have a note with the most recent update so the newer threads can be combed by hand if necessary. If I am left to this task, the Warehouse would only be updated on my own pace unless suitably bribed.

I must warn you, though: this project has been born, at least in part, by my inability to contribute to the updating to the official Archive. If given the credentials, there are serious chances I'd instantly drop this to pester you to understand the process of archiving so I can update the Archive when I feel like it. Refusal at that point may cause serious frustration on my part. This is NOT meant to be a callout, just a statement of fact. Do not give the keys to the kingdom lightly.