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PostPosted: Wed Jan 08, 2014 12:39 pm 
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Well, I found the old threads associated with the first WMTC, and I find it's been 3+ years since the original contest and over 2 years since I even had the last update to it -- and that was still a discarded "chapter 2". I really do want to work on it, but I'm not actually sure how to get myself working towards it instead of doing... all the other crap I do. (Actually, I hope that once I'm done shopping for a new laptop and actually have that new laptop, I can use the spare time I'm currently using to compare models and such.)

Anyway, in the hope of getting some feedback, since I plan on rewriting the current "chapter 1" anyway, I'm posting it here. I know several people we have in the M:EM now weren't around when I was still working on this. I've got a quickly-formatted-for-NGA version below in the spoilers or a Google docs version if anyone prefers that method (with comments enabled if you'd rather leave them there).

So, without further ado, please bash me into oblivion for the piece of crap from more than two years ago.

Chapter 1

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PostPosted: Sun Dec 07, 2014 6:41 pm 
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I really like this! I think you do an excellent job here of establishing both setting and character pretty seamlessly. I find Lyssia fascinating, and I can't help but imagine how she would interact with some of the characters we have now. I'm thinking the Eightfold Lotus could have a very interesting relationship with her, and I'd similarly like to see her battle with Kahr-ret-Taris.

I'm also really intrigued with the plot here, because you are keeping a lot from us in terms of what exactly has happened and what Lyssia actually wants. But I like where they're at at the end of this section, and now I really want to know where this will go from here. Very, very interesting.

There are a few issues I have with it, but most of them are revision things like typos. However, I do have to ask about "Galladria," which you seem to use interchangeably with Ihn Gallad. Is that just what the vedalken call Ihn Gallad? Is it what natives call the plane? What's the story there?

The other criticism I would level at this is a minor one, but I found it a little hard to follow what was happening with the action scene. I mean, I get the overall picture, but it was hard to picture the specifics.

Anyway, thanks for posting, and I really hope you decide to continue this story!


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PostPosted: Sun Dec 07, 2014 11:38 pm 
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Luna! Just popping my head in to say that I'm totes gonna read this (which I understand is how the kids talk these days).

Thanks for sharing, my good man!

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PostPosted: Mon Dec 08, 2014 12:56 pm 
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It's back! :D

Cool to see you working on this again.


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PostPosted: Mon Dec 08, 2014 6:37 pm 
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Fact: I still have a mock-up of Lyssia Crutoriae in one of my MSE set files. It has nothing except her name, colors, and creature types.

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PostPosted: Wed Dec 10, 2014 12:00 am 
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I have now read this!

Alright, I have a bunch of things to say. But, first off, let's deal with this little problem, shall we?

So, without further ado, please bash me into oblivion for the piece of crap from more than two years ago.

Now, as a virtuoso of negative-self-talk, I know negative-self-talk when I see it, and this is some mighty negative-self-talk right here.

Well, get that negative-self-talk out of here, Luna! Because this is really, really good! Rough in places, sure. But -- above all else -- really, really good!

Leaving aside the question of whatever you do or don't do with this story (although I very much hope that you'll continue with it, because I'm officially intrigued), I want to make sure you know that you're clearly a very talented writer. Anything you write, I'll be delighted to read.

Now, on the subject of the story itself, I'm a big fan so far. I'll second Raven in saying that I really like Lyssia as a character, and there are a ton of places in the M:EM I think it would be fascinating to see her go, and a ton of people I think it would be fascinating to see her meet. Obviously, she has pressing business which it seems like she needs to attend to first. But, if she ever finds her way out into the wider multiverse, I think that exciting things are bound to happen.

Generally speaking, I think you've also done a really nice job with the expository world-building. There were a few places where I found it a little heavy, but never severely so. It may be that's a stylistic choice on your part, in which case you should feel free to stick to your guns -- I'll be the first to admit that my own prejudices tend towards less-is-more when it comes to providing background on settings and their histories. But I kind of got the sense that, in some places, you were opting to reiterate certain points, or to provide additional layers of detail, almost because you didn't trust your writing to convey those aspects of the setting without also stating them explicitly. To the extent that this was driving your choices, I want to encourage you to trust your writing -- it's already telling us a lot, and it doesn't need backup.

For example, here's a little passage which kind of jumped out at me when I was reading:

Despite their image of swindlers and thieves, and the general racism against them, the bird-people's connections have always been extensive.

There's something to that little note about general racism which has a whiff of checkbox-ticking to me, almost like you're worried that this is a section of the Ihn Gallad dossier which you haven't covered well enough yet. But you don't strictly need the expository line here because, in the previous section, Rhee already addressed this topic, and he did it really, really well:

"We bird-people are still not so well liked. The young people of today have been taught by their parents, who were taught by their parents, who still remember the peddlers and swindlers of their age. Many still do not trust me because I come with feathers and a beak."


Similarly, this bit stuck out to me:

"There are young people out there speaking of a bounty. From what I understand, it is you they are after, not any fell beast or raiding party."

I think that Rhee's line here would have more punch if he omits that last bit, and just says, "From what I understand, it is you they are after." I get the sense that the last bit of that sentence is supposed to underscore the seriousness of the bounty hunters being after Lyssia by contrasting that with the sorts of things bounty hunters might normally pursue on Ihn Gallad. But, again, while there's nothing wrong with adding that detail, I feel like it isn't needed here -- it's obvious that bounty hunters being after Lyssia is a Bad Thing, and so I think that revelation doesn't need anything beyond a period after it.

Now, with all that being said, there's nothing wrong with either of those snips. If you like them they way you have them, then, by all means, keep them! My only point is that your characters are strong enough that they're already doing a ton of the world-building for you, and you should feel empowered to leave that to them if that's ever what you want to do.

My only other piece of feedback would be to echo Raven and say that I had a little trouble following the fight in some places. For example, it wasn't totally clear to me what happened to Lyssia here:

"This is no time for talk," it said in a much deeper tone that spoke as much of barbarian ancestry as it did the size and masculinity of its owner. "Let's be done with it before that overgrown bird gets back," it called, seemingly talking around Lyssia.

"Fine," spat the first voice, the anger redirected as it gave out an order. "Deneve!"

All at once Lyssia's world lurched. She found herself over the edge the trail before she could even react. The shadows had abated in the valley below, revealing the sheer drop in its entirety. A fall from a height such as this would kill any normal mortal.

I'm not really sure why Lyssia fell off the trail. Given what we subsequently learn, I'm guessing that Deneve did something to magic her off the path, but it would help to just have an explicit clue -- just a few words about Lyssia feeling the impact of a spell (if that's what did it), or a pair of strong hands pushing her from behind, or whatnot.

And that would kind of be my general piece of feedback about the fight, for that matter -- don't ever be afraid of just telling us who is doing what to whom, in plain terms. That never has to replace your more stylistic language, but, given how kinetic the fight is, and how many participants are involved, it helps to just have explicit updates from time to time about where people are and what they're doing.

But those are all just minor details at the end of the day. The big-picture takeaway that I want to emphasize is how much I enjoyed reading this.

There's no avoiding it: You're a writer, Luna. :)

I hope you'll keep writing. After all, I have a very selfish interest in your doing so, because I want to read whatever you may write.

Thanks a ton for sharing this story!

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PostPosted: Wed Dec 10, 2014 10:59 pm 
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Thank you all for being so kind. Let me address this first, just so everyone is clear:
It's back! :D

Cool to see you working on this again.

While I have tried hammering on this story again and again, I am not currently working on it. The last time I wrote anything for it was over the summer, and it was almost a year ago that this thread was made, more for the sake of preservation than anything.
As it stands, I think that this chapter will need another draft at least and a major rewrite at worst.


Second, I feel that maybe Lyssia's character stats haven't been represented exactly? She isn't mine per se, although I was decided as the one to write her story, and ostensibly took her over. She came about from the first (and only, I believe) "We Make The Character" contest from the mothership years ago. It was decided to make a planar-bound notable native who became a female Vedalken Warrior with a tie between Survivor and Outcast, if I recall correctly.* As such, she isn't going to be meeting the wider multiverse anytime soon. I have a nebulous outline for the story I wish to tell in my head, but I want it to play out over 15-20 chapters and it will involve a number of original characters, mostly from Ihn Gallad itself.


*I have the info stored in a file somewhere, but I can't be bothered to hunt it down right this moment.

Now, to address the individual criticisms.
There are a few issues I have with it, but most of them are revision things like typos. However, I do have to ask about "Galladria," which you seem to use interchangeably with Ihn Gallad. Is that just what the vedalken call Ihn Gallad? Is it what natives call the plane? What's the story there?

I had originally figured that "Galladria" would be a shorter way to refer to Ihn Gallad by its natives, like how the United States of America is usually just referred to as "America". Looking back on it, I think maybe I didn't get it quite right, but I don't know what the endonym or exonym for Ihn Gallad would be.

Quote:
I'm also really intrigued with the plot here, because you are keeping a lot from us in terms of what exactly has happened and what Lyssia actually wants. But I like where they're at at the end of this section, and now I really want to know where this will go from here. Very, very interesting.

I find it hard to address what Lyssia wants directly because it seems so cliché to me. In the original WMTC contest, one of the tropes thrown around (the contest included a vote for what tropes to attach to the character) which I latched on to was The Cassandra, in other words "the boy who cried 'wolf' effect". I decided in later drafts to play around with the expectation a bit, and maybe add a layer of intrigue, but it remains to be seen whether I can pull this off correctly.

Now, as a virtuoso of negative-self-talk, I know negative-self-talk when I see it, and this is some mighty negative-self-talk right here.

Well, get that negative-self-talk out of here, Luna! Because this is really, really good! Rough in places, sure. But -- above all else -- really, really good!

Leaving aside the question of whatever you do or don't do with this story (although I very much hope that you'll continue with it, because I'm officially intrigued), I want to make sure you know that you're clearly a very talented writer. Anything you write, I'll be delighted to read.

I mostly don't think that this particular piece, as it stands now, is all that good because when I looked back at the previous draft (before this one) when I first started working on "chapter 2", I realized how bad it had been and figure I'll probably look at this the same way if I actually took the time to re-read it. I have a tendency of not being satisfied with a draft of whatever I'm making and consigning the whole draft to the fire, and I'll probably make some heavy changes whenever I come back to this, but I recognize that the same tendency caused me to linger on the first chapter for far too long when I could have been working on the next ones, so I decided to let this one sit until I've made at least some headway into the rest of the story. As I already said, though, I am not currently working on it (though I have a bit of a break after finals which I might spend some time on it).

Quote:
Generally speaking, I think you've also done a really nice job with the expository world-building. There were a few places where I found it a little heavy, but never severely so. It may be that's a stylistic choice on your part, in which case you should feel free to stick to your guns -- I'll be the first to admit that my own prejudices tend towards less-is-more when it comes to providing background on settings and their histories. But I kind of got the sense that, in some places, you were opting to reiterate certain points, or to provide additional layers of detail, almost because you didn't trust your writing to convey those aspects of the setting without also stating them explicitly. To the extent that this was driving your choices, I want to encourage you to trust your writing -- it's already telling us a lot, and it doesn't need backup.

For example, here's a little passage which kind of jumped out at me when I was reading:

Despite their image of swindlers and thieves, and the general racism against them, the bird-people's connections have always been extensive.

There's something to that little note about general racism which has a whiff of checkbox-ticking to me, almost like you're worried that this is a section of the Ihn Gallad dossier which you haven't covered well enough yet. But you don't strictly need the expository line here because, in the previous section, Rhee already addressed this topic, and he did it really, really well:

"We bird-people are still not so well liked. The young people of today have been taught by their parents, who were taught by their parents, who still remember the peddlers and swindlers of their age. Many still do not trust me because I come with feathers and a beak."


Similarly, this bit stuck out to me:

Now, with all that being said, there's nothing wrong with either of those snips. If you like them they way you have them, then, by all means, keep them! My only point is that your characters are strong enough that they're already doing a ton of the world-building for you, and you should feel empowered to leave that to them if that's ever what you want to do.

Funny, that's pretty much exactly what I was doing back then. I was so, so worried that I wasn't portraying Yanmato's plane correctly that I felt I had to include direct references to what was in the style guide. I've since come to realize that I need to let the world flow as would be natural for the characters, which is especially important since all the characters introduced so far are all planar natives.

--------

Regarding the fight scene: I really do need to take a deep look at this whole thing at some point, and I will likely hit the fight scene the hardest on my rewrite. I know that the very first draft of this was even worse. I still don't know if I can do the fast-paced action well enough, but that is, again, something I shall find out when I get to that point.

I will say that Lyssia's lurch was supposed to be from one of Deneve's spells. While I never really cemented Deneve's colors/specialties, I kind of imagined it to be a magical shifting of Lyssia's location in space, and not strictly a push. Alternatively, I had thought to make it a manipulation of the earth under her, so that it could have been something she hadn't expected and would have been unable to avoid.


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PostPosted: Thu Dec 11, 2014 12:51 am 
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Now, as a virtuoso of negative-self-talk, I know negative-self-talk when I see it, and this is some mighty negative-self-talk right here.

Well, get that negative-self-talk out of here, Luna! Because this is really, really good! Rough in places, sure. But -- above all else -- really, really good!

Leaving aside the question of whatever you do or don't do with this story (although I very much hope that you'll continue with it, because I'm officially intrigued), I want to make sure you know that you're clearly a very talented writer. Anything you write, I'll be delighted to read.

I mostly don't think that this particular piece, as it stands now, is all that good because when I looked back at the previous draft (before this one) when I first started working on "chapter 2", I realized how bad it had been and figure I'll probably look at this the same way if I actually took the time to re-read it. I have a tendency of not being satisfied with a draft of whatever I'm making and consigning the whole draft to the fire, and I'll probably make some heavy changes whenever I come back to this, but I recognize that the same tendency caused me to linger on the first chapter for far too long when I could have been working on the next ones, so I decided to let this one sit until I've made at least some headway into the rest of the story.

As someone who has a similar tendency to get really, really down on his own work, I can understand what you're feeling. That's why I just want to say it again -- this piece is good, Luna. There are ways it can be better, no doubt. But it is good, and I say that without any qualifications. So don't let yourself get too down on your ability to write this story -- or any other story, for that matter. Because you can totally write.


Funny, that's pretty much exactly what I was doing back then. I was so, so worried that I wasn't portraying Yanmato's plane correctly that I felt I had to include direct references to what was in the style guide. I've since come to realize that I need to let the world flow as would be natural for the characters, which is especially important since all the characters introduced so far are all planar natives.

Yeah, that was the sense I got. I brought it up because I wanted to make sure that you didn't feel like you had to do that. The style guide can stand on its own, and your story can stand on its own. To the extent that one supports or enhances the other, that's wonderful. But your characters are good in and of themselves -- you can trust them to do good work on their own, without needing to repeat material from the style guide unless you specifically want to do so.

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