Joined: Oct 19, 2015 Posts: 2220 Location: Homestuck rehab center
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Alright, there was a general consensus to put up a mirror to our Archive on the Archive Of Our Own site, called AO3 for short. I accepted to do most, if not all, of the necessary legwork to set up the account and port the work, but there are still several questions that I'd like not to just decide on my own. I'll try to structure this first post the best I can; feel free to answer any of the following questions, which I will underline, or to suggest more.
Part 1: Account
My own AO3 account has invite codes that should allow me to skip the wait for one. (If any M:EMber fancies one you just have to ask) That said, there are multiple details to be decided, some mostly aesthetic while others more functional:
1.A: Should the account be based on the mail used by the M:EM Archivist account, or a brand new one?
1.B: What should the name and profile picture of the Archivist be?
-The name question is less obvious than you'd think, as AO3 doesn't allow for spaces within usernames; leaving no space (M:EMArchivist) doesn't enthuse me, and I'm on the fence about the underscore (M:EM_Archivist). We could even be cutesy and do something like M:EM_Archivist_O3. -Picking no profile picture isn't as elegant a choice on AO3, as it would default to the site logo.
AO3 lets you put up a Title, a Location and a short About of 2k characters. In my experience, they are read only occasionally, but this would be the main place where we can link back to this forum, so I think we should put together something.
Part 2: Work Body
2.A: What version of the works should I port?
Namely: is there any difference from the versions on the Archive subforum and the NGA wiki?
Tentative answer: The Archive version is the best updated.
2.B: Are there works beyond the Archive that deserve to be ported?
-AO3 allows for "Pseuds", sub-accounts linked to the main one, that would allow to put up works that are not part of the literal Archive under the "M:EM_Extra" or "M:EM_Beyond" pseuds or smth, which should allow for another About and stuff. The M:EM High School, Suppose Prose and Throw the Gauntlet threads all come to mind, despite not being moderated (specifically, writing for other people's characters without consent) and the work put into stuff like Feature Releases.
Tentative answers: There's a number of threads with archive-worthy material: -M:EM High School -Long Story Short -Throw the Gauntlet -Suppose Prose -50 word flash fic (more suggestions are welcome)
2.C How to translate html tags like quotes and spoilers?
-AO3 allows for limited html, meaning classics like bold, italic, underline and so on, with the option of adding images and stuff. That said, some works employ quotes and spoilers in ways that are integral to the text, and these tags have no direct translation, and need to be reformatted in some way. If someone with more knowledge than me wants to find a creative solution, here's the functioning tags:
allowed html
a, abbr, acronym, address, [align], [alt], [axis], b, big, blockquote, br, caption, center, cite, [class], code, col, colgroup, dd, del, dfn, div, dl, dt, em, h1, h2, h3, h4, h5, h6, [height], hr, [href], i, img, ins, kbd, li, [name], ol, p, pre, q, s, samp, small, span, [src], strike, strong, sub, sup, table, tbody, td, tfoot, th, thead, [title], tr, tt, u, ul, var, [width]
Part 3: Tagging System
When you post a new work on AO3, there's a lot you can add to your work's presentation, all information that are easily visible and often prominent.
full list
For each entire work:
Rating (General/Teen+/Mature/Explicit)
Archive Warnings (Choose Not To Use Archive Warnings/Graphic Depictions Of Violence/Major Character Death/No Archive Warnings Apply/[Rape/Non-Con]/Underage)
Fandoms
Categories [In case of romance and stuff]
Relationships
Characters
Additional Tags [the tags can be literally anything, from highly standardized and capitalized to short rambles]
Work Title
Summary [Max. 1250 characters]
Notes [Max. 5k characters. both at the beginning (they appear just below the summary) and the end of the work]
Collections
Series [different from collections because they are strictly ordered and can only (to my knowledge) contain work from the same account]
Inspirations
Work skin
Limitations on visibility and interactions
Co-creators/gifts to other accounts etc.
(each work has a
Furthermore, each chapter allows for more stuff: [*]Chapter title [*]Chapter summary [*]Notes [both at the beginning and the end of the work]
Some are quite obvious, like the Fandoms part, but others less so. Namely:
3.A: How to format plane tags and authors
-Of course, canon planes need only a simple name tag, like "Innistrad". M:EM-exclusive planes, however, are less recognizable at a first glance, but using something like "Jakkard - Plane" could be unwieldy. One can put consecutive tags like Jakkard, Non-Canon Plane (tags appear underlined because they act as links) or smth. -What about authors? We could text if AO3 has a maximum amount of pseuds, but I'd prefer a solution like "Huey Nomure - Author" or "Author: Huey Nomure"; in this case, we should also determine a standard order for tags to avoid confusion - imho the author tag should be consistently one of the first ones for clarity.
3.B: Standard Tags and Templates
-Mainly, how often should we link to the NGA forums, or put disclaimers about the aim of our project? We can put together some template to put into each work's summary or notes, possibly adding the date of archiving and stuff. Tagging everything as Magic: Extended Multiverse would be fine, although people are free to tag stuff in the same way (I've been doing that, for example) without our consent and come up when one clicks on that tag; I don't predict it being that big of a deal, but still. Adding the "No Canon Characters" or smth like that could be a fair warning for readers?
3.C Ratings and Warnings
-What's the work versions with the most accurate and updated stuff? I would really like to avoid close rereading the entire archive if someone already did at least some of the work. Also, I'm not that good at judging ratings, as I'm pretty sure my standard depictions of violence verge on the graphic, but I generally see them as merely realistic/optimized for rhythm and precision.
3.D Summary, notes and series
-Should I use the summaries offered on the NGA wiki? What about works not on the wiki? -How we should organize works about the same character? Should only big storylines like WotW be organized in their own series or also smaller cohesive plotlines like Fisco Vane's latest character arc? -What about required and recommended reading? Not all of these works are well suited to be simply put into a linear series/collection.
3.E Miscellaneous tags
-Rather than come up with individual tags for each work, I think there's merit in putting together a list of standardized tags that I can add when relevant. For example, any MtG-specific race would warrant a tag imho (Vedalken, Noggle and so on) but then I could justify doing that for any non-human race. Common tropes could also be options. Unfortunately, this is an extremely open-ended question; take a stroll on AO3, open any fandom and see what kind of stuff people come up with.
Part 4: Miscellanea
4.A: Should we put some version of the project rules and aims on AO3?
Tentative answer: We could put up a "work" with the extended aims and history of the project should an abridged version not suffice.
Current Progress: Preliminary phase (November 2022)
_________________
Cecil Gershwin Palmer (Welcome to Night Vale) wrote:
Alright, there was a general consensus to put up a mirror to our Archive on the Archive Of Our Own site, called AO3 for short. I accepted to do most, if not all, of the necessary legwork to set up the account and port the work, but there are still several questions that I'd like not to just decide on my own. I'll try to structure this first post the best I can; feel free to answer any of the following questions, which I will underline, or to suggest more.
Sorry it took so long to respond. Work's been kind of hell lately. Anyway, here are my thoughts, such as they are.
1.A: Should the account be based on the mail used by the M:EM Archivist account, or a brand new one?
I don't really have an opinion on this. I don't know how many of us have access to the current one, but I know I've never signed into it, even though I have used the Archivist account here numerous times, both when I was posting WotW chapters and when I was running the old Highlighted M:EMories thread. If you are going to be running it, it makes sense to use whatever you prefer, although I would let at least a couple of us know how to access it in the event you ever need or want to step down.
1.B: What should the name and profile picture of the Archivist be?
-The name question is less obvious than you'd think, as AO3 doesn't allow for spaces within usernames; leaving no space (M:EMArchivist) doesn't enthuse me, and I'm on the fence about the underscore (M:EM_Archivist). We could even be cutesy and do something like M:EM_Archivist_O3. -Picking no profile picture isn't as elegant a choice on AO3, as it would default to the site logo.
If spaces are not allowed, I'm fine with the underscore. I would vote for M:EM_Archivist.
As for the profile pic, I would suggest the M:EM logo that Barinellos designed way back. I found this one, though there is likely an earlier one out there, too: Logo.
AO3 lets you put up a Title, a Location and a short About of 2k characters. In my experience, they are read only occasionally, but this would be the main place where we can link back to this forum, so I think we should put together something.
Yeah, this seems like a good place to put info about the project and a link to NGA.
2.B: Are there works beyond the Archive that deserve to be ported?
-AO3 allows for "Pseuds", sub-accounts linked to the main one, that would allow to put up works that are not part of the literal Archive under the "M:EM_Extra" or "M:EM_Beyond" pseuds or smth, which should allow for another About and stuff. The M:EM High School, Suppose Prose and Throw the Gauntlet threads all come to mind, despite not being moderated (specifically, writing for other people's characters without consent) and the work put into stuff like Feature Releases.
I like the idea of a Pseudo-posted for our "non-canon" stuff, particularly the High School thread and the 50 word flash fic stuff. There's some really good stuff in the "long story short" thread, too.
2.C How to translate html tags like quotes and spoilers?
-AO3 allows for limited html, meaning classics like bold, italic, underline and so on, with the option of adding images and stuff. That said, some works employ quotes and spoilers in ways that are integral to the text, and these tags have no direct translation, and need to be reformatted in some way. If someone with more knowledge than me wants to find a creative solution, here's the functioning tags:
allowed html
a, abbr, acronym, address, [align], [alt], [axis], b, big, blockquote, br, caption, center, cite, [class], code, col, colgroup, dd, del, dfn, div, dl, dt, em, h1, h2, h3, h4, h5, h6, [height], hr, [href], i, img, ins, kbd, li, [name], ol, p, pre, q, s, samp, small, span, [src], strike, strong, sub, sup, table, tbody, td, tfoot, th, thead, [title], tr, tt, u, ul, var, [width]
Most of the stories don't require much formatting beyond paragraph indentations. For the ones that do, we would need to figure something out. Speaking only for myself, most of my stories that have spoiler blocks do so for spacing and convenience purpose, not for any formatting reasons. We could also just throw on a disclaimer for some of the pieces that the formatting has been edited from the original posting to accomidate AO3's formatting structure, and if the reader would like to see the original, here is a link.
Incidentally, does AO3 have profanity filters? Because if we do this, I would really like to put up the two canon Orida stories without asterisks.
Part 3: Tagging System 3.A: How to format plane tags and authors
-Of course, canon planes need only a simple name tag, like "Innistrad". M:EM-exclusive planes, however, are less recognizable at a first glance, but using something like "Jakkard - Plane" could be unwieldy. One can put consecutive tags like Jakkard, Non-Canon Plane (tags appear underlined because they act as links) or smth.
I like the idea of Jakkard, Non-Canon Plane, although my instinct says to put the Non-canon Plane tag first. Not knowing AO3 or how its interface works, I'm not sure if it matters much one way or the other.
-What about authors? We could text if AO3 has a maximum amount of pseuds, but I'd prefer a solution like "Huey Nomure - Author" or "Author: Huey Nomure"; in this case, we should also determine a standard order for tags to avoid confusion - imho the author tag should be consistently one of the first ones for clarity.
I like "Author: Huey Nomure." I also agree that the Author should be one of, if not the very, first tag. Again, I don't know the system, so maybe the very first tag would need to be/should be "M:EM" or something, but the author should come very early.
-Mainly, how often should we link to the NGA forums, or put disclaimers about the aim of our project? We can put together some template to put into each work's summary or notes, possibly adding the date of archiving and stuff. Tagging everything as Magic: Extended Multiverse would be fine, although people are free to tag stuff in the same way (I've been doing that, for example) without our consent and come up when one clicks on that tag; I don't predict it being that big of a deal, but still. Adding the "No Canon Characters" or smth like that could be a fair warning for readers?
I'm inclined to go with your recommendation here, as you know AO3 the best. I don't really know if I can weigh in on this one without knowing the system.
-What's the work versions with the most accurate and updated stuff? I would really like to avoid close rereading the entire archive if someone already did at least some of the work. Also, I'm not that good at judging ratings, as I'm pretty sure my standard depictions of violence verge on the graphic, but I generally see them as merely realistic/optimized for rhythm and precision.
I did not enjoy it when the wiki went live and we tried to rate everything. I'm just not good at it. Personally, I would rather just not bother, unless AO3 has some sort of system whereby certain subject matters are supposed to be avoided. We do have stories in the Archive that deal with some likely triggering issues, including violence and sexual assault, so if that's the kind of thing AO3 warns about, we certainly could, too. Otherwise, I wouldn't worry too much.
As for copy editing, Luna gave most if not everything that's up a once-over, and that was after the initial reading and the voting. It doesn't mean that everything is perfect, certainly, but good enough for our purposes, I think.
-Should I use the summaries offered on the NGA wiki? What about works not on the wiki? -How we should organize works about the same character? Should only big storylines like WotW be organized in their own series or also smaller cohesive plotlines like Fisco Vane's latest character arc? -What about required and recommended reading? Not all of these works are well suited to be simply put into a linear series/collection.
I think my recommendation would be the way I post a lot of my stories, many of which fit into a larger story arc, like the Thorneau Rebellion or the Daneera/Kerik arc. At the top of the story, have some sort of a note regarding which stories are recommended to read first, and if possible a link to them. I can certainly provide that for my arcs, and I think the Orcish wrote up some for the Jackie and the Beryl arcs, as well. I made a thread a while back called "Arcs and Triumphs" that put together the story orders up to that point. As for the summaries, again, I don't know Ao3.
-Rather than come up with individual tags for each work, I think there's merit in putting together a list of standardized tags that I can add when relevant. For example, any MtG-specific race would warrant a tag imho (Vedalken, Noggle and so on) but then I could justify doing that for any non-human race. Common tropes could also be options. Unfortunately, this is an extremely open-ended question; take a stroll on AO3, open any fandom and see what kind of stuff people come up with.
If you wanted to do this as a passion project, by all means. As you say, though, I think it would be a lot of work.
4.A: Should we put some version of the project rules and aims on AO3?
If we can write them concisely enough, I think that "About" section you mentioned above would be a good place for it. If not, I suppose we could create a "work" that would essentially be our mission statement and history.
That's all I've got for now. This is obviously a big and ambitious project, so there's no real hurry in putting this together, at least until we decide on our general course of action.
Incidentally, thanks for putting this together, Huey!
Sorry it took so long to respond. Work's been kind of hell lately. Anyway, here are my thoughts, such as they are.
No worries, late replies are always better than no reply
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If you are going to be running it, it makes sense to use whatever you prefer, although I would let at least a couple of us know how to access it in the event you ever need or want to step down.
If I used the mail that's already set up I wouldn't need to do so, right?
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As for the profile pic, I would suggest the M:EM logo that Barinellos designed way back. I found this one, though there is likely an earlier one out there, too: Logo.
Ooo, cool! Yeah, I like it.
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I like the idea of a Pseudo-posted for our "non-canon" stuff, particularly the High School thread and the 50 word flash fic stuff. There's some really good stuff in the "long story short" thread, too.
Yeah, exactly. I'll make a quick list of To-Be-Ported threads if people point out more stuff.
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if the reader would like to see the original, here is a link.
The link to the original thread could be put into every summary, actually?
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Incidentally, does AO3 have profanity filters? Because if we do this, I would really like to put up the two canon Orida stories without asterisks.
No filter of any kind! Orida can swear to her heart's content. I'll ask you to send me the originals when time comes to port her pieces.
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I like the idea of Jakkard, Non-Canon Plane, although my instinct says to put the Non-canon Plane tag first. Not knowing AO3 or how its interface works, I'm not sure if it matters much one way or the other.
It's just a matter of viewing order, so what you read first; hence the need to choose the order of importance of stuff.
About authors: now that I think of it, putting them at the end could also help visibility? Not risking to be lost in the middle and all.
Personally, I would rather just not bother, unless AO3 has some sort of system whereby certain subject matters are supposed to be avoided.
AO3 only shows unrated works when searching for Explicit works - and rightfully so IMHO - thus curbing most of our chances to come up in searches. Putting "Teen and Up" could be a safe bet for anything that has no particular trigger, although a few General Audiences for some Aloise pieces and the like could work in our favor? I know the system, not the average user navigation habits.
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I made a thread a while back called "Arcs and Triumphs" that put together the story orders up to that point.
Oh yeah, that'll be useful.
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As for the summaries, again, I don't know Ao3.
When you search for fics on AO3 you see the summary in a rather prominent position; as such, the summary is a key element in drawing in eyes for works that don't cater to popular ships, characters or tropes - which are common search queries. Putting a punchy description, a short cool passage or both are common solutions. However, picking or writing a summary for 300 works and change sounds like a daunting tasks. I could do it at a latter time, but since searches usually show results in chronological order the first period after the posting is a pretty crucial time for visibility. We could decide to not give a damn, though.
-Rather than come up with individual tags for each work, I think there's merit in putting together a list of standardized tags that I can add when relevant. For example, any MtG-specific race would warrant a tag imho (Vedalken, Noggle and so on) but then I could justify doing that for any non-human race. Common tropes could also be options. Unfortunately, this is an extremely open-ended question; take a stroll on AO3, open any fandom and see what kind of stuff people come up with.
If you wanted to do this as a passion project, by all means. As you say, though, I think it would be a lot of work.
It could be, but again - using popular tags would boost the chances of having more readers. It comes to a cost/benefits evaluations, basically.
4.A: Should we put some version of the project rules and aims on AO3?
If we can write them concisely enough, I think that "About" section you mentioned above would be a good place for it. If not, I suppose we could create a "work" that would essentially be our mission statement and history.
Putting up a not-work with our full aims and stuff sounds like a decent idea.
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Incidentally, thanks for putting this together, Huey!
Thank you for replying!
_________________
Cecil Gershwin Palmer (Welcome to Night Vale) wrote:
Joined: Sep 22, 2013 Posts: 5699 Location: Inside my own head
Identity: Human
I don't really have the time to respond to the other replies so far but I spent this free morning typing up some responses to the initial questions:
spoilered for space
1A.
I’m not certain myself, due to a few factors. First and foremost Keeper was the one that set up that account, and they’re not here anymore. Given that it’s been years since I have even logged into the Archivist gmail either, I worry that it may lock itself with only Keeper as the recovery – and I do not recall if I changed any of that. I guess it depends on google’s reaction if one of us tries to log into the old account.
1B.
For the name, I’m pretty alright with an underscore myself. It’s a tiny bit of nostalgia for me, recalling the times when spaces were never allowed in usernames, and IIRC we used an underscore for the old mothership forums.
For the picture, the “official” M:EM logo is a fine choice, though I will admit a certain fondness for the brain avatar we used on the mothership, tho I never knew which card art that was.
1C.
That’s something I’ll have to come back to. I’ve never considered myself good at that, but theoretically it should be easy to slap something together?
2A.
I do not recall uploading any works directly to the NGA wiki. I do not know how AO3 handles text formatting, tho, and it might take a bit of work to replace all the html tags. I don’t recall how many works I had edited for the Archivist’s Google Drive to that effect, but that’s an option as well.
2B.
Honestly for a while now I’ve thought that there are a number of works that deserve some more easily-accessible home even if they aren’t officially part of our Archive; like, I understand why our rules have kept some works out of our own canon, but it’s unfortunate that things like OL’s story of Gideon’s Bible had to be rejected. Between my expanded horizons over the years of the freedom of fanfiction, and my plummeting opinion of the official WOTC treatment of the Magic multiverse since retreating from the game, I’ve long wanted to just let anything “in”.
The fact that AO3 allows for such sub-accounts, where we can just have like a publisher of mainline works and secondary publishers of spin-offs, without even handing off that responsibility to every original author to make an account and post it themselves, sounds great; though I wouldn’t be opposed to just creating a tag for what counts as “M:EM Inclusive” so that if, say, Raven made an account just for his M:EM Highschool shenanigans, they could still be found via the tag, or if others wanted to add on their own takes to let our multiverse grow organically.
2C.
Oh, it actually looks like most of our works can be taken directly from the forum threads because they’re already using HTML tags. I’m not super familiar with HTML but I can see some substitutes in the allowed list – code blocks should work fairly well in place of quote blocks, for instance. It depends on each work’s needs and maybe looking over what those HTML tags actually do
3.
Also worth noting that the four major tags often serve as a “cover” for people browsing and IMO should always be filled: Content Rating, Relationship (a “General” rating in which there are no romantic relationship OR the romance is not the focus of the work exists), Content Warnings, and the In Progress/Complete tag.
Also given AO3’s interface, I personally find having too many tags on a work can be detrimental as it makes a “word cloud” before the summary and can be hard to sift through, even though normally I am all for tagging works with as many tags as possible for organization and search purposes.
3A.
Plane names might be better suited for a general browsing audience as something like Jakkard (World}, because while general nerdery fandoms would be familiar with the term “plane”, in my experience it means something a little different in every property. Like, by my understanding of D&D lore, each of our MtG-like planes would have to be labeled as a “material plane”, which would be even more unwieldy.
If we want authors as tags (which isn’t a bad idea come to think of it), I’d go with Author: [X] for it to be early in the tag list, though if said author has an AO3 account it would also be nice to link their account in the notes.
3B.
Both Original Work (as part of Fandom tags) and Original Characters (as part of general tags) already exist and I see no reason not to use them, particularly the simple Magic: The Gathering (Card Game + Original Work tags, as it very quickly establishes to the viewer “this is not just a fanfiction of what you’re familiar with”.
As I mentioned above, I’m roughly in favor of letting the project grow organically, particularly since A) the Archivist account can serve as the final Word of God on what’s canon B) we are a small and dwindling number and haven’t even had a vote in over 3 years; we could use some new blood, whom we could approach with the offer to be inducted into the canon under the Archivist account
Instead of coming up with a set of obtrusive notes for every story, I’d suggest a short disclaimer either for the description or as part of the end notes which just says something to the effect of “Like what you read? Check out our profile for more info” and when applicable add “This author is also on AO3 here”. Obviously the profile would be where to stick the NGA link.
3C.
I believe everything in the Archive subforum includes a short content warning at the top of the thread/post, but I wouldn’t be surprised if most depictions of “graphic” violence were skipped because that tends to be so integral to the fantasy genre. I wouldn’t be opposed to using the “Content warnings could apply” tag for most of our work considering that fact. That said, I think if we work together our collective memories could help elucidate most of the Archive for that purpose. Particularly since most of our prolific authors are still around and I read most of the Archive more than once during my time as Archivist.
3D (glasses).
For those that have them, the summaries on the NGA wiki might work, tho that list might be pretty small. It’s possible we’ve got other summaries sitting around in the voting threads or original posted threads for some stories.
I know for a fact that AO3 lets you add tags as they become relevant to a story, so I would say don’t worry about tagging every character until there’s been a few works with them in it, and even then I’d say only planeswalkers and prominent planar figures like Jackie, and not minor characters that might appear in more than one story such as Ursalyn from Beryl/Aloise’s romance plot (which I had to wrack my brain to find).
3E.
I don’t think it’s worth marking races as you’re suggesting (mostly because as you say then you can just do that for every race, but there are definitely some “fields” each work generally needs IMO: - Author - Plane (some exceptions such as Baloth Roars at Rock) - Character(s) (Dossiers excluded for instance, but they would need their own tag) - and a few general trope tags (mostly fantasy applicable)
4.
Probably the About section of the account will suffice, but I’ll have to think on this some more, especially as more people chime in.
Joined: Oct 19, 2015 Posts: 2220 Location: Homestuck rehab center
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Spoiler
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I’m not certain myself, due to a few factors. First and foremost Keeper was the one that set up that account, and they’re not here anymore. Given that it’s been years since I have even logged into the Archivist gmail either, I worry that it may lock itself with only Keeper as the recovery – and I do not recall if I changed any of that. I guess it depends on google’s reaction if one of us tries to log into the old account.
I'll wait for further updates then.
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For the picture, the “official” M:EM logo is a fine choice, though I will admit a certain fondness for the brain avatar we used on the mothership, tho I never knew which card art that was.
Idk how relevant this might be, but I'm not sure I know what art you are talking about.
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I do not know how AO3 handles text formatting, tho, and it might take a bit of work to replace all the html tags.
Not only it accepts most html tags but it takes rich text for works, meaning there 0 additional work necessary for most pieces.
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I don’t recall how many works I had edited for the Archivist’s Google Drive to that effect, but that’s an option as well.
Owo, what's that?
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I understand why our rules have kept some works out of our own canon, but it’s unfortunate that things like OL’s story of Gideon’s Bible had to be rejected.
...I'm not familiar with that either?
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though I wouldn’t be opposed to just creating a tag for what counts as “M:EM Inclusive” so that if, say, Raven made an account just for his M:EM Highschool shenanigans, they could still be found via the tag, or if others wanted to add on their own takes to let our multiverse grow organically.
We can't stop anyone from using the Magic: Expanded Multiverse tag, which is maybe what you mean by "organically".
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code blocks should work fairly well in place of quote blocks, for instance
That would prevent html in the quote from working, tho. Also, and I know that's a minor issue, the quote has the advantage of having the "X wrote" which is beautifully fitting for some excerpts, but I should prolly accept that as a loss.
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Also given AO3’s interface, I personally find having too many tags on a work can be detrimental as it makes a “word cloud” before the summary and can be hard to sift through, even though normally I am all for tagging works with as many tags as possible for organization and search purposes.
Fair, it's important to find some balance.
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Both Original Work (as part of Fandom tags) and Original Characters (as part of general tags) already exist and I see no reason not to use them, particularly the simple Magic: The Gathering (Card Game + Original Work tags, as it very quickly establishes to the viewer “this is not just a fanfiction of what you’re familiar with”.
Good point.
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Instead of coming up with a set of obtrusive notes for every story, I’d suggest a short disclaimer either for the description or as part of the end notes which just says something to the effect of “Like what you read? Check out our profile for more info” and when applicable add “This author is also on AO3 here”. Obviously the profile would be where to stick the NGA link.
Makes sense, you hook them on the good stuff before reeling them in. Disregard the ominous phrasing
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I believe everything in the Archive subforum includes a short content warning at the top of the thread/post, but I wouldn’t be surprised if most depictions of “graphic” violence were skipped because that tends to be so integral to the fantasy genre.
I've seen the use of the Canon-Typical Violence tag, but MtG not being terribly consistent with... well, almost anything, I dunno how apt that'd be.
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It’s possible we’ve got other summaries sitting around in the voting threads or original posted threads for some stories.
Searching them like that might be more work than writing from scratch, though.
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I know for a fact that AO3 lets you add tags as they become relevant to a story, so I would say don’t worry about tagging every character until there’s been a few works with them in it, and even then I’d say only planeswalkers and prominent planar figures like Jackie, and not minor characters that might appear in more than one story such as Ursalyn from Beryl/Aloise’s romance plot (which I had to wrack my brain to find).
Oh yeah, the Work By Character index has a pretty optimal selection for that. Quick aside, I'd rather put tags with no other relevant work early than having to check again and again 300+ works to add them in batches.
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Character(s) (Dossiers excluded for instance, but they would need their own tag)
Why would you exclude them?
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and a few general trope tags (mostly fantasy applicable)
Yeah... I'd rather have some list to pick the relevant options rather than coming up with names for classic tropes, tho.
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Cecil Gershwin Palmer (Welcome to Night Vale) wrote:
For the picture, the “official” M:EM logo is a fine choice, though I will admit a certain fondness for the brain avatar we used on the mothership, tho I never knew which card art that was.
Idk how relevant this might be, but I'm not sure I know what art you are talking about.
I don't know where the art came from, but here's a screenshot with it (on the right-hand side):
White Blight
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White Blight.jpg [ 141.9 KiB | Viewed 2810 times ]
I understand why our rules have kept some works out of our own canon, but it’s unfortunate that things like OL’s story of Gideon’s Bible had to be rejected.
...I'm not familiar with that either?
It was my story, not Orcish's. It's "Showdown," Antine's origin story.
Incidentally, does AO3 have profanity filters? Because if we do this, I would really like to put up the two canon Orida stories without asterisks.
AO3 has negative profanity filters. One thing AO3 keeps getting flack for is that they allow things people consider “squick” and a few countries consider illegal even though AO3 is composed entirely of fictitious words. One thing AO3 sticks to its guns on is a hard stance against censorship of any kind.
I like the idea of Jakkard, Non-Canon Plane, although my instinct says to put the Non-canon Plane tag first. Not knowing AO3 or how its interface works, I'm not sure if it matters much one way or the other.
It's just a matter of viewing order, so what you read first; hence the need to choose the order of importance of stuff.
About authors: now that I think of it, putting them at the end could also help visibility? Not risking to be lost in the middle and all.
Oh, I was erroneously thinking tags were in alphabetical order, because the hierarchy of tags isn’t as visible as on other sites I visit (mostly image boards). In that case, there are a couple of more elegant suggestions I can provide for the author, such as “Written by X”, “Originally by X” or simply “By X”. As long as we can put it absolutely anywhere, I would personally make it the very first tag.
I’ll still stand by my “Magic: the Gathering, Original Work” suggestion, though, as those get put into the separate fandom tags just under the title of the work and make it both more visible and frees up space in our tag cloud.
AO3 only shows unrated works when searching for Explicit works - and rightfully so IMHO - thus curbing most of our chances to come up in searches. Putting "Teen and Up" could be a safe bet for anything that has no particular trigger, although a few General Audiences for some Aloise pieces and the like could work in our favor? I know the system, not the average user navigation habits.
Oh, okay, I didn’t know that about unrated works – I’m used to sites doing the opposite, whereby things need to be tagged in order to be filtered out (such as, say, when doing innocent searches on DeviantArt and finding porn that was not labeled as mature only). I would prefer things being rated anyway because it’s so much easier to search through, but also I honestly didn’t even think of the “Teen and Up” category because in terms of fanfiction, I’m so used to that being used for either hardboiled “DARKNESS! NO PARENTS!” works or someone’s first foray into pseudo-porn (like Ash and Misty from Pokémon forming a relationship and then having a miscarriage), that I wasn’t even thinking about the typical real-world application of the category. Teen and Up is just PERFECT for our typical levels of fantasy violence, but yes I’d also say a fair percentage of our works could fit into the General category (a lot of poems, for example).
I think my recommendation would be the way I post a lot of my stories, many of which fit into a larger story arc, like the Thorneau Rebellion or the Daneera/Kerik arc. At the top of the story, have some sort of a note regarding which stories are recommended to read first, and if possible a link to them. I can certainly provide that for my arcs, and I think the Orcish wrote up some for the Jackie and the Beryl arcs, as well. I made a thread a while back called "Arcs and Triumphs" that put together the story orders up to that point. As for the summaries, again, I don't know Ao3.
Just going to second Raven on this that we already have many recommended and required reading disclaimers on many of our stories which can easily slide into the top notes, and we’ve had more than one thread discussing the arcs and interconnectivity of our Archived works. At one point many years ago I made an “M:EM map” that people took as a challenge and wrote more interconnectivity into our Archive.
I also know that AO3 lets you mark works as “Part X in Series Y” kind of thing, which would make larger arcs even easier to weld together.
That's all I've got for now. This is obviously a big and ambitious project, so there's no real hurry in putting this together, at least until we decide on our general course of action.
Yeah, I’m glad we’re in the preliminary planning phases at the moment due to this being such a big undertaking.
When you search for fics on AO3 you see the summary in a rather prominent position; as such, the summary is a key element in drawing in eyes for works that don't cater to popular ships, characters or tropes - which are common search queries. Putting a punchy description, a short cool passage or both are common solutions. However, picking or writing a summary for 300 works and change sounds like a daunting tasks. I could do it at a latter time, but since searches usually show results in chronological order the first period after the posting is a pretty crucial time for visibility. We could decide to not give a damn, though.
This is one reason why I’m glad we’re in the early stages, because I, personally, would like a “one and done” approach, where we can upload each work with the half-dozen tags needed and a summary and notes all at once, so as to do minimal editing and backtracking. Luckily some of our most prolific authors are still around to give short summaries of their works, plus the memories we also share about a work to punch out a good chunk of summaries. That may be something that we’ll need another thread for, once we have an account set up and ready to go.
I see no reason why summaries need to be more than a few sentences long, though. If I were to come up with an example, then for Love and Theft, I would put something like:
“In a small prospecting town, a certain red-eyed bandit comes to steal something, and finds more than she expected. Jackie DeCoeur and Trotter make their debut amid a heist that ends up being for more than just gold.”
If we want to get fancier, we can include references to the Wild West style of plane/story, and/or include the M:EM disclaimer in the summary.
I don’t recall how many works I had edited for the Archivist’s Google Drive to that effect, but that’s an option as well.
Owo, what's that?
Some amount of the Archive – and I think it was a decision I had made for uploading works during a certain year or so, rather than going through our backlog – I had made a pass through to remove all HTML tags to form a human-readable version on google docs. It may have coincided with Raven’s profanity story that we couldn’t post directly to NGA. Now that I know AO3 uses most of the same HTML tags, though, it shouldn’t be needed.
We can't stop anyone from using the Magic: Expanded Multiverse tag, which is maybe what you mean by "organically".
Yeah, I meant like to put the M:EM in a petri dish and let things grow off of it, maybe getting rid of our voting process altogether and just building where we will. Just the same as we can’t stop others from using our tags, they can’t stop us from building off of their works – not that I’m arguing we just go and steal others’ ideas for our own, but we don’t have to be quite so strict with who gets counted as “in” in a way, especially if we’re going to be using a secondary account for non-canon works. We could even just use one Magic: Expanded Multiverse tag and consider the primary Archivist account our “publisher/IP holder” for canon purposes.
There are a few choices we have to make regarding the works marked private, though that’s no bigger an issue than the official WOTC works we’ve also been hosting as archival work such as the Ask Brady Archive or the Planeswalker’s Guide to Jamuraa.
Character(s) (Dossiers excluded for instance, but they would need their own tag)
Why would you exclude them?
Sorry, I meant that a character tag would not be needed on a world dossier – that was my mistake thinking about “dossier” the same as “worldbuilding document”.
It was my story, not Orcish's. It's "Showdown," Antine's origin story.
Aw, ****, I’m sorry. My only defense is that it’s been… wow, almost 9 years now. I only remember the Gideon thing being the sticking point.
No worries. As you said, it's been a LONG time, and anyway, I'm naturally going to remember my own stories more than others would, what with spending the most time with them and writing them and all. The story itself is a reskin of the song "Rocky Raccoon" by the Beatles, which of course is something I've been known to do. Of course, Orcish was known to do that same thing from time to time.
I would imagine so, especially if we do have the "pseuds." I remember really liking your story about the angel from a while back.
I have a general rule for myself that I don't read or comment about anything that ties in with canon characters or planes, so I haven't read some of your more recent stuff. But obviously, it depends on what we do with "M:EM canon" and "non-M:EM canon" stuff. I suspect we'll start with canon stuff, but I have honestly no idea.
If you're asking about your non-Archived works making it to the non-Archivist pseud(s?) I may set up, you can certainly make a case for them as per other threads; I/we have currently no criteria for that past including content-rich communal threads like prompts and so on, so it's free game; I don't remember you being nothing but a positive presence in the forum and you posted some good stuff over the years, so that's cool by me.
(mind you, that undertaking will probably start after the entire Archive is ported)
If you're asking about your non-Archived works being posted through the "official" Archivist pseud, I'll need a solid case for approving the (indirect?) bypass of the M:EM rules regarding the Archive. Especially since, as it has been said, the works posted through our AO3 accounts will be visible once anyone looks into the Magic: Expanded Multiverse tag.
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Cecil Gershwin Palmer (Welcome to Night Vale) wrote:
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