I'm offended that you think I'm going to be offended! >:[

If it's about the Orzhov being jerks, I'm probably just going to resignedly nod because, yeah, that's about par for the course. I'll never say that the Orzhov aren't unabashedly evil, just that they don't have to be. It's actually rather silly how little nuance there is within that guild, considering it is made up of the two most contradictory colors.

I mean, at least Dimir has the excuse of being specifically MADE for EVIL!!! EEEEVIL!!!

And the Rakdos are run by a literal demon who kills people that don't... make him... laugh...

Oh my god Rakdos is the Grand Highblood. D:

yeah. specifically, I'll probably be taking inspiration from Maw of the Obzedat.

Kinda funny you mention the Dimir, as they're a guild I tend to view in an unreasonably positive light.

I like this idea. I just believe that Ravnica doesn't really have an Avacyn or Eldrazi titans, or anything like that without Jace. It's good to be able to slip in gossip about someone or something other than guilds and such. So I'm all for contrasting time periods of Ravnica with and without a Guildpact: written, magical, or human.

Oh my god Rakdos IS the Grand Highblood isn't he? D:

Now I almost want a story featuring Mirthful Messiahs. But not really.

Also, I have a suspicion about what character might feature in a story by Szat that will give me Feels.

You know, I almost am tempted to say we should pull the trigger on this just because so many people are signing up now for Murasa Logbook... but on the other hand I keep remembering that the major resource drain is going to be the design end of things and I'm juuust not sure how to navigate around that problem. (Although to be honest, if someone else can do typesetting for me that alone would be a major, major help.)

...I hate how absolutely indefensible that card is. I also hate how ridiculously over the top it is. Like, what, killing people wasn't enough? You had to feed them to an ENORMOUS REPRESENTATION OF YOUR GREED AND GLUTTONY? And then enslave their souls anyway???

*Grumble*

Hey, if there's anyone used to viewing an unequivocally evil guild in a positive light, it's me. Dimir has more wiggle room, actually, than the Orzhov does. Mostly because you never really see what the Dimir are doing. Guild of Secrets and all that. Like, yea they have undead and giant squicky horrors, but that's not really evil by itself. There's a lot of room for the Dimir to do good things for wrong reasons, and vice verse. Lot's of gray area in between Blue and Black, I guess.

@Planechaser: As ridiculous as it is, Ravnica does have Worldspine Wurm, so... Jokes aside, I am going to point out that Ravnica doesn't need an "Avacyn" or an "Eldrazi Titan". Ravnica doesn't even really need Jace! See, Ravnica was a great setting before Mr. Mind Molder managed to meddle. It's rich in possibility, diversity, and just plain cool stuff. Write a story about Mindleech Mass, or one about Counterflux. The possibilities are literally endless, because, like I said before, Ravnica needs no gimmick. It stands on its own.

Well, I'll disagree that Ravnica need no gimmick, as the guilds do serve as Ravnica's gimmick. Ravnica's status as a city-plane alone is just as fulfilling as a giant Sports Arena plane w/ no unique teams or especially unique gameplay (like Final Fantasy X's Blitzball) so it needs its gimmick. From what I understand, Agents of Artifice pretty much treats Ravnica as nothing more than a setting of the story. A place and time. I don't see Avacyn or the Eldrazi as gimmicks, I see them actually as the antithesis to the gimmick, which is surprisingly accurate. Innistrad's gimmick is Gothic Horror (werewolves, ghosts, demons, vampires, zombies, etc) and Avacyn is the glimmer of hope that opposes that. Zendikar's personal gimmick is its very wild landscape and insentive for adventure and exploration, which the Eldrazi interrupts in grand style. Ravnica's planar gimmick is its guilds, and even its original guildpact was a part of their foundation, only now that a living person (a mind mage and Planeswalker no less) has *become* the guildpact is it truly an especially significant change to the status quo.

As I expect Ulamog will not be a major, deep focus in the Logbook; and Avacyn's absence or reappearance were mere background mentions, Jace's guildpact responsibilities can and should be just as relevant as they were. Definitely, but minimally. But considering the pattern here, Jace as a resident of the plane can be permitted in early stories (if so chosen) and Jace as the guildpact can be utilised (if so chosen) if it's done trivially. I do not agree that Avacyn or especially Eldrazi deserve mention at all, and Jace must be disregarded. They are all trivial of course, but all the same, under these circumstances, a canon character can be used properly.

Either way, gimmicks come first, and their antitheses can be fit in as trivia when needed.

Ravnica was plenty interesting in AoA. There's loads you can do with a city plane that goes beyond the ten guilds. I mean... Ruwin showed that with his take on Verkel in Two Bullets. I'd argue that story is very much about the consequences of covering all the liveable area with city, and then fill that area to the brim with people who hate each other.

Marvel predicted Ravnica in Age of Apocalypse? That's awesome! I need to reread that story-arch now...

No acronym or turn of phrase is safe while you're around, Raven

That is very, extremely true.

Intentional misunderstanding has long been one of my favorite kinds of jokes. Unfortunately, it has, over the years, led several people to think I'm an idiot, because in real life, I tend to dead-pan them and wait for a reaction. Therefore, people who don't know me tend to take me seriously. Which...amuses me greatly, to be honest.

I... feel like you are misunderstanding the term "gimmick", Planechaser.

A gimmick is something that is implemented for the sole purpose of generating interest. They're not always bad things, but usually they tend to be hollow and shallow. In the case of Ravnica, a gimmick would be the Dragon's Maze. The Dragon's Maze was big and flashy, and there was a lot of cool stuff associated with that, and oooh, yea, fantasy Ravnica (possibly fatal) olympics woo!

...And then when it was all over nothing had changed except that Jace is canonically bound to Ravnica as its babysitter. There was no change in the status quo, contrary to what you believe. In fact, there was very pointedly no change at all. The guilds aren't the gimmick here, nor were they ever. Ravnica is an extraordinarily well designed world that stands on its own as it was first created. The guilds are a part of Ravnica, but they aren't all of Ravnica. They aren't a gimmick, they're a feature.

Jace is a gimmick.

Dragon's Maze is a gimmick.

Hell, the guildpact is a giant, magical mcguffin that basically says "BETTER KEEP EVERYTHING JUST HOW IT IS FOR THOUSANDS OF YEARS".

By extension, it's not Avacyn that is Innistrad's gimmick, (neither is the fact that it is a gothic horror setting, because that is the setting and not a gimmick at all so I don't really understand what you're getting at here?) but rather her disappearance. Ooh, the Helvault somehow ate her when she was fighting Griselbrand, but you don't get to learn about this for three sets. She's just gone and now BAD stuff is happening. If she had never disappeared, there would have been no plot, because she's just this giant, nearly omnipotent god-being that can't possibly be defeated by the forces of darkness. When she showed back up, everything got better immediately. It's flashy and cool, but it doesn't accomplish anything but a return to the status quo.

The Eldrazi are giant tentacle/bone monsters that eat worlds. Adventureland!Zendikar may be a strange setting, but it's still a setting, and not a gimmick. Zendikar is doomed because Giant Eldritch Mana Gods Are Hungry. (Featuring: Nicol Bolas for some reason??) I mean, this same thing happens every day around noon with Barinellos!

What I'm getting at (long-windedly, I apologize) is that good writing shouldn't rely on a gimmick. Good writing stands on its own, because its good. Strong, believable characters, with strong, believable reactions. Interesting, fleshed-out settings with well described and atmospheric backgrounds. Understandable, fascinating plot points along well written plot lines.

The anthology doesn't need Jace - it needs Ravnica as a setting, and good writers. That's really it.

Lord, my posts keep getting longer. O_O

Would you characterize the end of Quest for Karn and the whole titular quest a gimmick or not, Ruwin?

Similarly: New Phyrexia--Setting or Gimmick?

And how would you differentiate a gimmick from a plot hook?

I did not read Quest for Karn so I'm probably, uh, not going to explain this very well.

From what I understand, though, I don't think the quest itself was a gimmick. Looking for Karn seems like a reasonable plan, honestly. Even if he's the reason all this bad stuff was happening in the first place because he forgot to wipe his shoes before he created a plane. Surely he'd be able to help, right? And then they find him all corruptified - and like I said, I didn't read QFK - and so my mind would immediately jump to "Hey, wasn't there that one Elf lady who makes people immune to phyresis or whatever? Let's go get her!". I don't know if this was feasible, but it SOUNDS reasonable.

Instead, I guess Venser ripped out his heart and somehow Karn got his spark? Yea, that sounds like a gimmick in a sea of otherwise reasonable actions and reactions. OOH, VENSER MUST SACRIFICE HIMSELF FOR HIS ONE TIME MENTOR. TRAGIC. I guess it was a good thing no one really liked him anyway.

I mean, I see a gimmick when I'm reading something, and there is a plain, logical solution right in front of the character's collective faces. And they do something dramatic or stupid instead, for IMPACT. Or SHOCK VALUE. Or maybe even just STYLE POINTS.

As for New Phyrexia, I thought it was pretty obvious where Mirrodin was heading even BEFORE Scars came out. The oil is what Corrupted memnarch in the first place, yeah? Mirrodin was always, inevitably, heading towards becoming New Phyrexia. The Mirran retcon- I mean, resistance, was cute. But the real setting of Scars block is this terrifying new Phyrexian order that is attempting to backwards engineer plane-spanning technology. Like, I wish they had just STARTED there and then slowly revealed that this used to be Mirrodin. That would have been cool.

Yea, I like New Phyrexia as a setting. Tough to write for a plane full of villains though. Unless you're Raven.

The gimmick vs. plot hook thing is actually pretty simple. A gimmick starts something and then never delivers on anything of value. Nothing happens. For instance: Venser give Karn his heart, and then Mirrodin just... becomes New Phyrexia anyways. But at least Karn is alive? By the same token, Avacyn's disappearance. She vanished, nobody knows why, and then bad stuff starts to happen. Then more bad stuff happens, and by sheer circumstance, she is freed, shows back up, and bad stuff stops happening. Then everything is back to normal, with the added bonus of Wolvir.

I mean, it's awfully convenient someone as selfish and spiteful as Lilliana had a score to settle with the demon that ended up imprisoning Avacyn, otherwise Innistrad was doomed. (What was Sorin doing again?)

A plot hook starts something, and moves the characters into the plot. For instance: Frodo inherits a ring from his uncle, and because of the nature of the ring, is forced to flee for his life and go on a grand adventure he never expected to be a part of. It would have been a gimmick if the ring just... turned him invisible and then he was subsequently attacked by weird guys in cloaks for no reason. And then destroyed the ring because it was "evil" and that was that.

Anyway, hope this clears things up. O_o Sometimes I get carried away. -_-

The funniest part about this is that I personally really dislike the Phyrexians as villains. They've just, I don't know, never really spoken to me or grabbed my interest. It's one of the main reasons I've never been fond of the whole Weatherlight saga. So although it is true that a plane full of villains would be a great deal of fun to write for, I personally would not be at all interested in writing for New Phyrexia.

As for the gimmick thing, the term originated in shady carnivals and confidence scams to refer to something that appeared real but was in some way false. For example, the old "find the lemon" tables were often "gimmicked" with a false trap door to drop the lemon down. So the search for the lemon to those duped into playing was a gimmick, because there was no lemon to find. Plot hooks, however, advance the plot. Now, that being said, it doesn't mean that plot hooks can't be poorly written, and I think THAT'S where Quest for Karn comes into play. It's not a gimmick, it's a plot point...it's just not a very good one.

Yeah, if you're looking for an author to utilize the Phyrexians, that would probably be me. I had at one point the outline for a saga of New Phyrexia that would have been very much stepping on canon's toes, hence why I avoided it in the end.

We also have Shandrovol!New Phyrexia and the WIP world that had its plot shaped by a Phyrexian legacy.

Yeah, despite my not liking the Phyrexians overall, I think Tevish did a good job with them in Shandrovol, and I think it's an example of a good way to utilize them.

I never said that the collection of stories *needs* Jace or anything like that. Just as the Expeditions Logbook could have been anything BUT the quests, and yet that was how it was agreed to be written. Also, my belief is that a LOT of things are more subjective than people realise. Need is a very relative term. Just like there's still sequence to the other anthologies I've come to know, I would argue so would this one have a relative story end. If it's not the end of Dragon's Maze/The Secretist, then it's up to someone else to decide what the end aims for. I don't mean to be rude, but I believe I'm being heavily misunderstood. Regardless of how complete you think Ravnica is, it's complete with all its gimmicks and its plot hooks and any and all other very important facets with the guilds somewhat in play. While I personally prefer Post-Dragon's Maze, the matter is the sentiments of any willing authors. As you may have noticed, Avacyn was mentioned in Seasons of Dusk. It was clarified that the anthology occurred after Avacyn was created and seemingly was locked into the Helvault. Had things been done differently, the anthology could and would have been set before Avacyn even existed. Point being, Jace or no Jace, if RTR *era* Ravnica sounds doable to everyone, I can dig it. But need to know if the words "Jace", "mind mage", "living guildpact", or any subtle references thereof will be accepted or refused.

I see your point, Planechaser, although for the record the Innistrad anthology was written with three different time periods in mind that "roughly" reflected the three sets of the Innistrad block, which is to say "Bad, Much Worse, Better." There are certainly stories in the third section of the anthology that occur after Avacyn's return, but there were also clearly stories in the earlier sections that occur beforehand. The anthology is not set in one time; it spreads across a time-frame of several years. Also, several stories in Seasons of Dusk have no apparent time given. They could occur either pre- or post-Avacyn's Return.

As far as references to Jace, just remember that we "usually" try to avoid mention of canon where possible, and always try to avoid doing anything that might conflict with canon. If you want to mention Jace as the Guildpact as a way of suggesting what approximate timeframe your story deals with, that's fine. If you want to do something that will directly impact Jace, that's probably not as fine, because it might eventually conflict with canon. The way I would do a Ravnica anthology would be to encourage stories from multiple Ravnican timeframes. I would even try to get one from around the time of the drafting of the original guildpact! But really, the subtleties of the interactions of people in Ravnica won't change much whether a story is set in Guildpact-era Ravnica, Dissention-era Ravnica, or post-Dragon's Maze Ravnica. The only real difference is that in two of those era's, the guild's can't outright destroy one another. But they can still move against each other, more or less as they see fit, as long as the other guilds still exist.

This is generally what I've been getting at. Since Ravnica is one of the few planes to have "sequels", I can see the anthology being told from nearly any time period of Ravnica's history. As for Jace's ACTUAL involvement, I do mean to make his status and mere presence (on the plane) known through some idle conversation, NOT an actual action taken or appearance by Jace. So my main concern has been answered. It appears any Ravnica story intended for the anthology can be done from any time (if Jace is the guildpact, it should be done as described just now) and once collected together will be placed into order after.

Yeah, I agree, I personally think that's best.