Ruwin, thanks again for reading, and for the thoughtful feedback -- which is very much appreciated, and very much makes sense.
I hope you get yourself a bagel with so much cream cheese on it that it's kind of oozing out through the middle, but the absence of said bagel does not appear to have affected your usual thoughtfulness, in so far as I can tell.
Anyway, I really appreciate the time and depth of thought you put into your comments, so I want to try to do some equivalent thinking before I respond. In the meantime, thanks again, and enjoy said bagel.
_________________
"And remember, I'm pullin' for ya, 'cause we're all in this together." - Red Green
Continuing my tradition recently of reading the stuff you guys write while in the worst possible states of mind, I read this late last night three nights ago while developing a splitting headache, and a LOT of it hits... well, honestly almost too close to home given some recent experiences I had?
Like I said in the intro thread, basically this isn't even going to be anything remotely resembling a kind of formalist, disinterested review? And for that I'm sorry and not even sure about the utility of saying it at all and making y'all read it? But I guess I'm just feeling like this is something I need to approach from a more reader response/affective perspective to really work with. So yeah. Sorry in advance for this.
Oh, and thanks to Ruwin for posting too because that kind of helped me sort out some of my own thoughts on this stuff.
Spoiler
I guess what I keep coming back to with this, having read through the whole thing twice now and poked at my own feelings on it for a few days is that there's so many ways that this could have gone really, really wrong, in part because of the kind of messed up power dynamics that really favored Alessa and because of Beryl's inexperience.
Like, ok, I guess I should preface this by actually saying what went on with me recently because it's kind of crucial to understanding where I'm coming from and why I'm responding to this piece the way I am. Two weeks ago I hooked up with a friend, and basically the long and short of it is that we didn't communicate very well. As a result, we both thought that the other person was initiating things and we were just going along with it. It's like when you're walking in a crowd of people and you just sort of all respond to each other in such a way that you end up going in a particular direction without anyone actually leading. We just happened to go much further in a particular direction than either of us actually wanted to.
And part of that was because neither of us listened to the signals from our own bodies and brains that we weren't comfortable with what we were doing, or that (in my case) we weren't getting the kind of aftercare that we needed. I mean, I've been with Sara a long time and I don't have a lot of experience with other people, so it wasn't obvious to me at the time that for me if I do ANYTHING I kind of need to talk it out afterwards. It's just something that has to happen for me to be comfortable. And similarly, the person I was with didn't realize that the testosterone from my body would have a strong negative effect on her psychologically. We couldn't really predict that but maybe we could have paid more attention in the moment and realized that something was wrong.
And when I'm reading Beryl's thoughts here I'm thinking of that experience and the fact that even though I have these Best Practices in my head I still ignored them for various reasons (some of them which Beryl shares--self esteem issues for one). And Beryl doesn't even have THAT. I mean I kind of doubt that when she was locked up as a teenager she got a lot of instruction on principles of communication in BDSM and the importance of self-knowledge.
So I look at that and I think... these characters are walking on a razor's edge that it's upsetting for me to witness because I wonder how well Beryl knows her own desires here and I wonder how she's going to process the experience of her own desire and pleasure. Like I want to like Alessa's philosophy here but there's an element of coerciveness to what she's doing here that just makes me feel like... ugh, I don't know, it's uncomfortable for me basically, and it's way too easy for me to see how Alessa could take advantage of Beryl's lack of self-knowledge to push way beyond her comfort zone and I'm... not entirely sure I believe in the best case scenario that plays out here? In getting into Beryl's head I'm ending up filling in, in my perception of her emotions, all sorts of conflicted thought and discomfort and maybe even a little violation, because that's the experiential baggage that I'm bringing to the story at this particular moment. Like... I'm not really able to disassociate my own desires from Beryl's as I read because that push and pull of want/do not want is too familiar.
It's arousing and nauseating.
I'm not saying that this is wrong or the story is wrong or that it needs to be changed or anything like that. Like that would require thinking about the problematics of queer representation here I think and I'm just not in a headspace where I can take a step back and analyze the dynamics of this from a thematic perspective. But I also feel like I need to say all this stuff because if I don't it's not honest to my reaction and to my way of relating to the piece, if that makes sense. I'm not sure if there is a utility in sharing this reaction beyond the value of the confessional act in and of itself for me alone, but maybe that's enough to justify it?
...All that said on a more formal note I think maybe you would be well served with just a mention of what Beryl needs help with at the beginning of the story because I read the first few sentences and couldn't for the life of me remember what it was. The beginning at the moment just feels a little abrupt.
I also am unsure of Alessa's line about not having anything Beryl doesn't have, since there's no reason for Alessa to think Beryl is cisgender and given that they're on a plane that in other ways seems far more permissive of queerness I'm not sure it makes sense for Alessa to make that assumption... particularly since, I mean, this is Alessa we're talking about, she's not exactly inexperienced you know?
Otherwise I mean I like a lot of what's going on here, it's just not really possible for me to untangle my experience of this piece from my own experiences with... like... screwing up so bad. I mean wow how do you even communicate that badly I just don't know.
So so happy to have my ship partially canonized though @_@ Aloise x Beryl 5ever
I'm not going to comment on a lot of stuff in response to this since I'm not sure it's my place to answer the comments, but there are two things that I do want to chime with, with no real commentary about what you take from it.
I guess what I keep coming back to with this, having read through the whole thing twice now and poked at my own feelings on it for a few days is that there's so many ways that this could have gone really, really wrong, in part because of the kind of messed up power dynamics that really favored Alessa and because of Beryl's inexperience.
This is... honestly not untrue of most of the conversations that Alessa has. Her ability to see what's coming up gives her an enormous power advantage in any interaction she has. I'm not saying it's right, but it's part of the reason that I got so bothered by Raven's comment earlier. Consent is important to her because she could very easily do some very terrible things with what she knows.
Quote:
I also am unsure of Alessa's line about not having anything Beryl doesn't have, since there's no reason for Alessa to think Beryl is cisgender and given that they're on a plane that in other ways seems far more permissive of queerness I'm not sure it makes sense for Alessa to make that assumption... particularly since, I mean, this is Alessa we're talking about, she's not exactly inexperienced you know?
Alessa tends not to assume when she can see the future.
_________________
At twilight's end, the shadow's crossed / a new world birthed, the elder lost. Yet on the morn we wake to find / that mem'ry left so far behind. To deafened ears we ask, unseen / "Which is life and which the dream?"
But yeah, that fact about Alessa's power over others is definitely one of the things that I find confounds me when I try to take stock of what's going on. On the one hand she HAS the power, but on the other hand here she doesn't use it.
I think my sort of gut level discomfort has more to do ultimately with Beryl and whether or not she can understand her own mind well enough to know what she wants, basically.
Keeper, thanks for reading, and for sharing your thoughts. I'm always happy to get feedback -- there is no bad feedback. And you raised some concerns which I really do want to respond to, similar to Ruwin. I take things about sexual coercion and the like very, very seriously, and I want to take the time to offer a good, thoughtful response. I'm really sorry if the story caused any problems in that regard. That was certainly not the intent.
I hate the timing on all this, because I am traveling tomorrow, and I need to get all the liquids and gels out of my luggage so that I don't wind up getting waterboarded at some CIA black site. (I am not a good air traveler, on top of which I am always worried that I will end up committing a felony by bum-rushing the TSA officer who gives Mrs. OL her "optional" pat-down. Or, as I like to call it, the Freedom Fondle!)
Anyway, I'm going to try to post a good response tonight, fatigue and luggage nonsense permitting. Barring that, I'll try to respond tomorrow.
Again, thanks for reading!
_________________
"And remember, I'm pullin' for ya, 'cause we're all in this together." - Red Green
Hey, don't worry about it! And like I said before, I don't think you need to apologise for writing something that's affecting. I just felt I should share the reaction I had and try to articulate why.
Keeper, thanks for reading, and for sharing your thoughts. I'm always happy to get feedback -- there is no bad feedback. And you raised some concerns which I really do want to respond to, similar to Ruwin. I take things about sexual coercion and the like very, very seriously, and I want to take the time to offer a good, thoughtful response. I'm really sorry if the story caused any problems in that regard. That was certainly not the intent.
I hate the timing on all this, because I am traveling tomorrow, and I need to get all the liquids and gels out of my luggage so that I don't wind up getting waterboarded at some CIA black site. (I am not a good air traveler, on top of which I am always worried that I will end up committing a felony by bum-rushing the TSA officer who gives Mrs. OL her "optional" pat-down. Or, as I like to call it, the Freedom Fondle!)
Anyway, I'm going to try to post a good response tonight, fatigue and luggage nonsense permitting. Barring that, I'll try to respond tomorrow.
Again, thanks for reading!
Okay, so I know this is sad, but reading this post and the several meaningful, thoughtful posts before it leads me to only response, and of course, it's a Simpsons quote:
Mr. Scorpio wrote:
"We don't have bums in our town, Marge, and if we did, they wouldn't rush. They'd be allowed to go at their own pace."
Close the door! The Ice Cream is going south quick!
Quote:
But yeah, that fact about Alessa's power over others is definitely one of the things that I find confounds me when I try to take stock of what's going on. On the one hand she HAS the power, but on the other hand here she doesn't use it.
That's,... Alessa would probably KNIFE me for this, but it's because Alessa is a deeply conflicted and complicated person. I feel like I should explain more about that, but I'm finding myself at a lack of words. It just comes down to the fact that she doesn't see herself as someone who would take advantage of an innocent person. Even some people who have some karma due, if she can, she'll avoid hurting them because it's just something she doesn't want to do. She's capable of some really awful things if forced (and in fairness, that doesn't take much for her to feel cornered for obvious reasons), but in her heart, she doesn't want to hurt anybody.
Okay, so I know this is sad, but reading this post and the several meaningful, thoughtful posts before it leads me to only response, and of course, it's a Simpsons quote:
Mr. Scorpio wrote:
"We don't have bums in our town, Marge, and if we did, they wouldn't rush. They'd be allowed to go at their own pace."
In fairness, if you're going to quote the simpsons, that's a good one to quote. That and Cape Feare.
_________________
At twilight's end, the shadow's crossed / a new world birthed, the elder lost. Yet on the morn we wake to find / that mem'ry left so far behind. To deafened ears we ask, unseen / "Which is life and which the dream?"
Okay, first of all, I want to thank everyone who commented on the story. I've said it before, but it bears saying again -- your feedback is always appreciated, in any shape or form.
Having had a little time to think, what I believe I want to do is to try to talk through some of my process in writing the story, and to explain what I think Beryl's thought processes are. (Keyword here is "think" -- it's always possible that I've got Beryl wrong, and that one of the reasons why feedback is so valuable. I spend a lot of time thinking about Beryl, but that doesn't mean I always understand her correctly. Sometimes other people see things that I don't. That's one of the things which I love so much about this community. )
Now, there are two disadvantages associated with this way of doing things. The first is that it's going to be a looooooong response, so I'm going to spoiler block it below for length. I'll apologize in advance, but I care a lot about these characters, and I care a lot about doing right by them. So I'd rather go on for a little bit than try to summarize and risk muddling the point. Second, it means that I may not respond directly to all the questions which Ruwin and Keeper and others raised. But I'd rather just talk through my thinking in general than go point-by-point, because I'm not trying to imply that anyone else shouldn't feel the way they feel, and so I don't want this to come across as a rebuttal, or anything like that.
Finally, I'll try to give everyone a fair warning before the feels get too feely.
It's more complicated than I ever intended...
I've been trying to think about where to start, and I think that the place to start is with Aloise. Because, while she never appears in this story, and she is never even mentioned by name, she is very much *present* in this piece, for the simple reason that Beryl loves Aloise. Beryl loves Aloise in the fullest sense of that word.
This is something which I've come to realize gradually over time. It wasn't something I set out to engineer when I put Beryl and Aloise together in the first place. The thing I took away from that initial encounter was that Beryl liked Aloise, and that Aloise was, in a very important sense, good for Beryl. She was a force for kindness and acceptance which Beryl desperately needed in her life, both in general, but also at the very specific moment in time when they met. At that point, I figured that Beryl's feelings towards Aloise were primarily gratitude and admiration.
And I think that Beryl does feel both of those things towards Aloise. But, much later, as I was writing "Friends and Killers," I started to realize that there was more to it than that. And it came about because I was thinking about the favor which Beryl had promised to Fisco, and the similar offer which she makes to Aloise afterward -- not out of a position of obligation, but because she wants to help Aloise in whatever way she can. So I found myself asking the question: Would Beryl kill for Aloise? And the answer was an instant "yes." As much as Beryl is troubled by the act of killing, she would do it without hesitation if it was to protect Aloise. So then I found myself asking a more interesting question: Would Beryl die for Aloise? And, again, I was surprised at how quickly and vehemently I saw Beryl nod her head. "Yes," she said. And, in that moment, I didn't have to ask why, because I realized what the answer was: Beryl loves Aloise.
And she doesn't just love Aloise because Aloise is one of the few people who has ever been kind to her, although that obviously plays a role. It seems to be much, much deeper than that to me. Beryl looks at Aloise, and she sees someone who is kind, who is good, who is honest, who is optimistic, who is loyal, who is selfless, who is fearless, and who is true. As she puts in in this story, she looks at Aloise, and she sees all the goodness in the world. Beryl admires Aloise for those qualities, because those are qualities which Beryl aspires to herself. But, again, it goes deeper than admiration. She loves Aloise simply for being who she is, and she loves Aloise because, when she's around Aloise, she feels like a better person herself. Beryl has had tragically few happy moments in her adult life. Aloise makes her happy at a very elemental level. And Beryl has fallen in love with Aloise, intensely and completely.
And this scares Beryl to death.
I think that, at a very basic level, the story of Beryl's life is a story about fear. Fear hangs like a cloud over so much of what has happened to her, and fear is central to the way that she thinks about herself. Beryl is afraid of herself. She is afraid of what she can do to people, what she has done to people, what she suspects she will do to people again. She is a very emotional person. She feels quietly, but she feels intensely. And she is terrified of how she feels about Aloise.
At one level, that fear is the fear of rejection. She knows she loves Aloise, but she does not know if Aloise loves her. (I want to stop here for a second to stress that I don't make any representations for Aloise in any of this. I don't claim to know how she feels. I'm trying to represent Beryl's feelings only.) And Beryl is scared of letting Aloise know how she feels, because what if Aloise does not feel the same way? I don't want to say it would break Beryl's heart, because I think she would keep on loving Aloise all the same. And I think that she values Aloise's happiness above her own, in no small part because Beryl has no doubt that Aloise deserves love and happiness, whereas I think she very much still doubts whether she deserves the same. So, if she knew that she couldn't make Aloise happy, she would never try to impose herself on her.
But there's more to Beryl's silence than a fear of rejection. She's also deeply afraid of what it would mean if Aloise *did* love her back. Because, again, Beryl is scared of herself. She considers herself dangerous, and she considers herself damaged. She has made real progress in trying to accept herself for who she is, but she isn't there yet. And, because of the way in which she killed her mother, she has a particular, intense fear that she will do harm to the people she loves. Which is why, as much as it breaks my heart, I think she believes it when she says that Aloise is better off not knowing how she feels. Beryl is afraid that she will hurt Aloise. She is deathly afraid of that. And, if something like that were to happen, then I do think that would break Beryl's heart. I think it would break Beryl, frankly. I think that she would disappear into a very dark place, and I don't think she would ever come back out. I don't think she would ever forgive herself.
And that's why Beryl has never said anything to Aloise about any of this. I think she came very close, once, at the end of their encounter in "Friends and Killers." (I didn't realize that at the time I was writing that piece. But I re-read that story about a week ago, and it just jumped off the page at me. It was a very strange experience.) There is that moment where Beryl puts her hands on Aloise's shoulders and tells Aloise never to doubt her own goodness. And, afterward, there is a moment of silence. And I think that, in that moment, Beryl desperately wants to say something more. I think she really, really wants to say: "I love you." But she doesn't. She can't quite bring herself to do it. And I think the speed with which she leaves afterwards shows how difficult that moment was for her, both because she could not bring herself to say it, and because she wanted to say it in the first place.
Now, like I said, I came to understand how much Beryl loves Aloise a while ago. What I did not know until I started working on this story was whether or not sexual attraction was part of that. Honestly, Beryl's sexuality has been something of a mystery to me up until now. It wasn't something I thought about when I first started to write her, it didn't really come up in stories until now, and it was something which she was always very private about. And I did not want to presume that Beryl's romantic interest in Aloise implied sexual interest as well.
And this is where Alessa enters into the picture. Because Beryl's encounter with Alessa prompted the question: Is Beryl sexually attracted to Alessa? And the answer turned out to be, yes, she is. And Beryl kind of let me know, as part of that answer, that she has same-sex attractions more generally. I don't want to imply that this represents some kind of clear boundary around her sexual preferences, because I don't know. That's something which hasn't come up yet, and I suspect that she'll cross that bridge when and if she ever comes to it. But again, for now, I don't want to presume.
Now, to be clear, Beryl's interest in Alessa is by no means purely sexual. I think she's fascinated by Alessa in a lot of ways, because there are ways in which she and Alessa are very much alike, but there are also ways in which she and Alessa are very much different. They have similar backgrounds, and they have similar issues with self-doubt. But they comport themselves so differently. Beryl is quiet and reserved, whereas Alessa is brash and uninhibited. And I think Beryl envies that in a very real way. I think she looks at Alessa and wonders why she can't feel that way herself. And I think she also appreciates that, unlike so many of the people who she encounters -- especially Astria, but this includes The Shifter and, to a much lesser extent, Fisco -- Alessa is very transparent with Beryl about how she's feeling and what she wants. And Beryl is also deeply appreciative of the fact that Alessa is openly interested in her. That's something she has been wanting for a long time, I think. She wants to feel desired.
So, when Alessa asks Beryl for a kiss, I don't think that Beryl kisses Alessa because she feels like she's being coerced. I think she wants to kiss Alessa, and so she does. I think she kisses Alessa because she is physically attracted to Alessa, specifically. And, more generally, I think she kisses Alessa because she has been wanting this kind of physical intimacy for a long, long time. I don't think this is something which Beryl takes lightly. I think Beryl takes it very seriously. And, to the extent that she is hesitant about it, it's because she is scared of her own inexperience. She's scared of not knowing what to do, of doing things wrong. So, when Alessa kisses her back, and when Beryl realizes how much she enjoys it, I think that's a very significant moment for her. I really hope it doesn't come across as prurient, or coerced, or meaningless. To the extent that it seems like any of those things, that represents a failure of writing on my part.
But I think that Beryl realizes something else in that moment, too. And I think what she realizes is that, as much as she wants physical intimacy, and as much as she may enjoy physical intimacy, those things don't matter as much to her as emotional intimacy. She's sexually attracted to Alessa, and she is also sexually attracted to Aloise. But there are so many more dimensions to her love for Aloise than sexual attraction. And, as much as she is terrified of the implication that loving Aloise might have, she is reminded of the fact that her love for Aloise is also this beautiful thing that really lives at the center of her heart. It's one of things which has been carrying her through the dark moments in her life. And so that's why she backs away from doing anything more with Alessa than that kiss. I think she remembers the fact that she has feelings for Aloise that she doesn't have for anyone else, and she is trying to be true to those feelings.
And then the moment comes when Beryl realizes that Alessa can tell what she's thinking. And Alessa just comes right out and asks the question: Who are you thinking about?
And, in that moment, I think Beryl's reaction is just: *she knows.* Beryl has been holding her feelings about Aloise inside, she's been keeping them secret from everyone else. Then, suddenly, here's this other person, and it seems like she knows. It seems like the secret isn't a secret. Which is why I think Beryl suddenly opens up. I think she's relieved to be able to talk about it.
Honestly, I think that one of the saddest things about Beryl's life is that she really doesn't have anyone to talk to other than Aloise. She's surrounded by all these people who are trying to manipulate her, who are trying to turn her own emotions against her. Aloise is the only person she feels comfortable opening up to. But this is the thing which she can't even talk to Aloise about, because she's scared of all the things which Aloise might say in response.
But it seems like Alessa is already in on the secret, and so Beryl decides that maybe, finally, this is someone she can talk to about this one thing which she can't talk to anyone else about. And I think that what she says is maybe, for me, one of the most emotionally affecting things I've ever heard her say: "I look at her, and I see everything that's good in the world. I look at her, and I see all the goodness which I wish I saw in myself." So, if it seems like this moment is trivializing the way that Beryl feels about Aloise, then that's just a real failure of writing on my part.
***TMI ALERT***
Now, what I realized when I was thinking about this today is that, beyond those conscious brain reasons for why Beryl opens up to Alessa about Aloise, I think I was subconsciously projecting some of my own experiences on to Beryl, here. Which probably helps to explain why I wrote that scene the way I did.
For several years in college, I had a very unhealthy kind of non-relationship with a girl. I don't want to say anything bad about her, because I have no idea what was going on inside her head at the time, and because I know that I've grown up a lot since then, and I'd hate for people to judge me based on the way I behaved at that age. But it left me feeling really screwed-up for a long time.
To give a very short version of events, I was carrying a torch for this girl in a serious way. She lived in the same big, coed house I lived in, and we would talk and flirt a little bit, and I thought that maybe she was interested in me, too. So, I eventually got up the courage to ask her out, which was very difficult for me to do, because I was always very awkward around girls, and I had never actually had a girlfriend at that point.
Well, she turned me down. She turned me down in unambiguous terms.
But then, a funny thing happened. For the next several years, she was dating other guys, but she would still spend a lot of time with me. And, whenever she got drunk, she would flirt with me. She would flirt really aggressively with me. And I would try not to read anything into it, but I couldn't help myself. And, inevitably, whenever she became single again, it would escalate.
And, each time that happened, I would start thinking to myself: maybe, this time, it's different. Maybe, this time, I have a chance. And, eventually, I would ask her out again. And she would turn me down again, and would start dating someone else. And the cycle would begin anew.
Well, that went on for some time. Every time I thought I was finally getting over her, every time I thought I wasn't going to be dumb enough to get sucked back into that patter again, I would get sucked right back into that pattern again.
Then, something indescribably wonderful happened: I met the woman who would later become Mrs. OL. And I fell for her, hard.
Only, I couldn't ask her out. I felt so screwed-up, so beaten-up by what had been happening with this other girl, that I was terrified that something similar would happen with Mrs. OL. I was terrified that, if I asked her out, she would say no, too. And I was equally terrified that, if I asked her out, it would be for the wrong reason. I didn't trust my own emotions. I was really, really afraid that I felt the way I did about Mrs. OL because it was my brain's way of trying to get me out of my vicious cycle with this other girl. I was worried that, if I asked Mrs. OL out, it was going to be for the wrong reason.
So, for months, I just held my tongue. All the while, the other girl kept flirting with me whenever she was drunk. And it was all really twisting me into knots.
Then, one day, a mutual friend of myself and Mrs, OL cornered me in the library print room. And she just said to me: "Are you going to ask Mrs. OL out, or not?"
And, after the initial moment of shock, I remember just feeling this insane sense of relief that someone else knew about how I was feeling. And I talked to the friend about it, and it just felt like a thousand pound weight came off my shoulders. I told her, "I want to, but I'm worried that I'd be doing it for the wrong reason, and I'm worried that she'd say no." And the friend said to me: "She's not going to say no. But you'd better hurry up and ask her. Because, if you don't, someone else will."
The next week, Mrs. OL and I went on our first date. And we've been together ever since then.
And so, I think, at a subliminal level, I was putting Beryl in my own shoes, here, with Alessa playing the role of the friend.
Because, I think that, sooner or later, Beryl's going to have to talk to Aloise. As much as she fears that conversation, the way in which she's currently trying to hold her feelings inside is not sustainable. I have no idea how that conversation will play out, but I know that, whatever the outcome, it will be better for Beryl than living with all this fear.
So, to the extent that Alessa can prod Beryl in that direction, I was hoping that this experience would be a positive one for Beryl. And I don't think Alessa is trying to be exploitative. I think she is trying to help.
_________________
"And remember, I'm pullin' for ya, 'cause we're all in this together." - Red Green
In fairness, if you're going to quote the simpsons, that's a good one to quote. That and Cape Feare.
"Surely there's no harm in laying in the middle of a public street."
OrcishLibrarian wrote:
A lot of really interesting things.
Okay, so I have a few things to say about this piece in specific response to some of the points brought up by Ruwin, Keeper and Orcish, but I feel I need to preface it a little. First of all, I do not have the emotional connection/reaction to this that others have, so my reactions here are going to be pretty dispassionate and purely from my own point of view (which they usually are). I of course do not mean to offend or upset anyone, nor to in any way devalue your personal experiences or connections to these characters. Those are all incredibly valid, and none of us should lose sight of that.
Spoilering for length:
Spoiler
So, there are a few things I want to get out of the way right off the bat. First of all, I enjoyed the story, and personally, I would be fine with it as it is, without a single change. That fact will be important to keep in mind. The other thing is something each one of us knows very well, and that is that we all come to what we read with certain baggage that we cannot realistically divorce from our reading. It might be a personal tie to the character, a past event that is closely related to the plot, or some other prejudice we have. For me, it was this last thing. I have a prejudice that I have mentioned before on these boards that undoubtedly tints my reading of this piece:
I don't like Alessa Rehn.
Sorry, Barinellos! Sorry, Orcish! But I just don't like her. As a person. I've said it before, I love her as a character. She's a very complex character with interesting outlooks, experiences, and powers that give her a wealth of narrative possibilities, and that's all great. The archives are, I think, better with her in them. But as a person, she hits many of the things I don't like in people. And in all likelihood, that dislike comes from other sets of experiences and prejudices I may have, but it doesn't change the fact that if I knew Alessa in real life, I would probably try to avoid her as much as possible.
So keep that prejudice in mind as I address my main point:
So, when Alessa asks Beryl for a kiss, I don't think that Beryl kisses Alessa because she feels like she's being coerced. I think she wants to kiss Alessa, and so she does. I think she kisses Alessa because she is physically attracted to Alessa, specifically. And, more generally, I think she kisses Alessa because she has been wanting this kind of physical intimacy for a long, long time. I don't think this is something which Beryl takes lightly. I think Beryl takes it very seriously. And, to the extent that she is hesitant about it, it's because she is scared of her own inexperience. She's scared of not knowing what to do, of doing things wrong. So, when Alessa kisses her back, and when Beryl realizes how much she enjoys it, I think that's a very significant moment for her. I really hope it doesn't come across as prurient, or coerced, or meaningless. To the extent that it seems like any of those things, that represents a failure of writing on my part.
I really don't want you, Orcish, to assume I think you did something wrong or poorly here. I think (hope) you're aware of how much I think of you as a writer. But I'll be honest; this story didn't read this way to me personally. Again, maybe it's my dislike of Alessa's personality, but Alessa's initial demand for a kiss did not come across to me as innocent or as any attempt to help Beryl. I think she was trying to make Beryl uncomfortable. Alessa is very good at reading people, whether she's using her future sight to help her or not. She could tell from the very beginning that Beryl was uncomfortable there, and personally, I think Alessa thought Beryl was being a prude based on Beryl's reaction to Alessa's nudity and the state of the shop. I think Alessa wanted to see if this uptight woman (as she perceived her) would do something she was uncomfortable doing to get the chest open. We know from Alessa's reaction to the first kiss that Alessa did not expect Beryl's inexperience, so I read her initial demand as coercion. Maybe it's not all that insidious a coercion, admittedly, but she knew she was in a position of power (Beryl needed her to open the chest) and she used that to force Beryl to do something she didn't seem to want to do.
Now, I admit, that after Beryl admits that was her first kiss, I think Alessa's attitude changes, and at that point I think she is more inclined to try to help Beryl. But she's still, in my opinion, taking advantage of Beryl's inexperience, trying to force a catharsis that she thinks Beryl needs under the extortion of opening the chest. Beryl's attraction to women is incidental to me in this scene. Alessa wouldn't have acted any differently. If Beryl were into girls, into guys, not into anyone, or in a committed relationship, I don't think Alessa would have acted any differently. As far as Beryl goes, I personally didn't pick up on an attraction to Alessa, but rather a physical and psychological reaction to her first kiss.
You say that Beryl kisses Alessa because she wants to. And she probably does. It didn't read that way to me. To me, it read that Beryl has done what she's done most of her life, specifically with Astria. She acquiesced to someone who had power over her. With Astria, it was always her name. With Alessa, it's opening that chest. After Beryl had crossed that line and stolen the chest from Astria, she NEEDS to open it. She needs to know if the Shifter was telling her the truth. I literally cannot imagine Beryl giving up at this point. And she had already worked out that only Alessa could be trusted to keep her secret, so when Beryl tells Alessa she'll do ANYTHING Alessa wants, she means it, and Alessa knows it, and chooses to use it for her own amusement.
Now, admittedly, Alessa is a thief and has no personal connection to Beryl whatsoever, so she can't really be expected to work pro bono. And it's not as though Alessa is in any way out to hurt Beryl. And I agree that Beryl has been craving physical intimacy. But, and maybe I'm projecting here, I think with where she's at in her life, she would feel guilty for not sharing that with Aloise first, even if she discovers that Aloise is not interested.
The point I'm long-windedly getting at here is that, to me, I did feel like Alessa coerced Beryl and that, left to her own devices, Beryl would not have kissed Alessa, even if Alessa had offered (but not insisted.) That's just my take.
And again, I don't personally have a problem with the way it all plays out. It certainly doesn't make me like Alessa (as a person) any more than I did, but I probably wasn't going to anyway. For me, the heart of this story was always the letter and the reactions it caused and the story it furthered. I am, as ever, interested in Beryl's future development and her future interactions with Aloise, whatever they might be.
I thiiiink I read things along the lines that Raven's suggesting basically, yeah. Though I can see your reading of and understanding of it as well, OL. Thanks for sharing that perspective and story.
Thanks for sharing those thoughts, Raven. I'm just going to offer some quick thoughts of my own in response, and then I do want to think about this all some more.
I'm rereading what I posted last night, and I think I did a fuzzy job of articulating myself in some places, and that you've put your finger on a couple of them.
I really don't want you, Orcish, to assume I think you did something wrong or poorly here. I think (hope) you're aware of how much I think of you as a writer. But I'll be honest; this story didn't read this way to me personally. Again, maybe it's my dislike of Alessa's personality, but Alessa's initial demand for a kiss did not come across to me as innocent or as any attempt to help Beryl. I think she was trying to make Beryl uncomfortable. Alessa is very good at reading people, whether she's using her future sight to help her or not. She could tell from the very beginning that Beryl was uncomfortable there, and personally, I think Alessa thought Beryl was being a prude based on Beryl's reaction to Alessa's nudity and the state of the shop. I think Alessa wanted to see if this uptight woman (as she perceived her) would do something she was uncomfortable doing to get the chest open. We know from Alessa's reaction to the first kiss that Alessa did not expect Beryl's inexperience, so I read her initial demand as coercion. Maybe it's not all that insidious a coercion, admittedly, but she knew she was in a position of power (Beryl needed her to open the chest) and she used that to force Beryl to do something she didn't seem to want to do.
I agree that, initially, Alessa is trying to put Beryl in a situation which she thinks may make Beryl uncomfortable, because she wants to see how Beryl reacts. Like you said, I think she picks on up Beryl's initial awkwardness, and she wants to see whether that awkwardness is stemming from heteronormativeness (which spell check tells me is not a word, but I guess I don't know what the correct word would be?), or whether it's something else. I think Alessa wants to see what Beryl would do. I guess the distinction I was trying to make is that I don't think Alessa would ever have forced Beryl to do something that Beryl didn't want to do. I think Alessa likes to probe, and likes to test boundaries. Which, due to the power imbalance which people have pointed out here, may be problematic?
But I don't think Alessa would ever force someone to do something they didn't want to do.
But, and maybe I'm projecting here, I think with where she's at in her life, she would feel guilty for not sharing that with Aloise first, even if she discovers that Aloise is not interested.
No, I don't think you're projecting. I think the same thing.
* * *
Actually, I think I need to take some time to try to process all of this. I'm not totally sure how I feel about things at the moment.
On the one hand, I really do like this story. I really do.
On the other hand, I'm finding myself troubled by some of the reactions people are having. Really troubled.
Like I said before, this story feels very important to me. And, as such, I want to get it right. I really, really want to get it right.
Not good. Not mostly right. Not just in the Archive.
Right.
I care about Beryl. I care about Beryl probably an unhealthy amount, but that is what it is. I know that she's a fictional character, but she matters to me, and I feel like I have an obligation to her. It's important to me that I get her right.
I don't know if I have this story right. I might, but I don't know. And, if it isn't right, I honestly don't know what I would need to do to fix it.
I need to take some time to think it all over. I think I'm too close to it right now. I'm having a really hard time thinking about this clearly at present.
With that being said, I really hope that people will continue to share any thoughts or comments that they may have, because they are helpful. They give me food for thought.
(And, for the record, I want to be *crystal* clear that any problems which may exist in this story are problems of my making, and no one else's.)
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"And remember, I'm pullin' for ya, 'cause we're all in this together." - Red Green
(And, for the record, I want to be *crystal* clear that any problems which may exist in this story are problems of my making, and no one else's.)
Glad I could help, but for the record, I don't think that's necessarily true. After all, by our own admission, Ruwin, Keeper and I all came to this with a different set of things we were focusing on, whether it's a character they made, a personal experience, or pre-existing conceptions of characters you didn't even create. What can I say, Reader-Response theory is a thing.
I'm not saying you did this story right, and I'm not saying you did it wrong. But I will say that this story has created some very thoughtful and interesting discussion, and that's a good thing.
(And, for the record, I want to be *crystal* clear that any problems which may exist in this story are problems of my making, and no one else's.)
Glad I could help, but for the record, I don't think that's necessarily true. After all, by our own admission, Ruwin, Keeper and I all came to this with a different set of things we were focusing on, whether it's a character they made, a personal experience, or pre-existing conceptions of characters you didn't even create. What can I say, Reader-Response theory is a thing.
I'm not saying you did this story right, and I'm not saying you did it wrong. But I will say that this story has created some very thoughtful and interesting discussion, and that's a good thing.
Oh, I totally get that everyone comes to this story -- or any story, for that matter -- from a different perspective. But sometimes you all can see things which I don't see. Heck, sometimes I can see things which I don't see, provided you put enough time between the two halves of that sentence.
Anyway, having had the night to sleep on it, I think I've figured out what I need to do.
For the time being, I just need to let this story sit. Like I said, I'm too close to it right now. There is a part of my brain which isn't quite able to fully engage with some of the observations people have made, because, depending on how I end up feeling about them, that might mean having to do some pretty serious re-writing. And, if I'm being completely honest with myself, I just don't have the mental fortitude to deal with that prospect right now.
So, what I'm going to do for the time being, I think, is to just let this piece sit for a while. Then, maybe a month down the line or something, I'll try to take another good, hard look at it. And, if I realize that I'm doing violence to Beryl, I will fix it. Alternatively, if I feel like I've got her correct, then I'll feel more confident about that judgment than I would if I made it now.
The tricky bit is that I have a lot more Beryl stories I want to tell. So I'm just going to try to keep writing forward in the meantime. If I decide I need to make changes here, I'll edit the subsequent stories to bring them in to alignment, if that turns out to be necessary.
I'm hoping it won't, since I think the big plot beats in this story are correct. Beryl is going to meet Alessa, Alessa is going to help Beryl open the box, Beryl is going to read her mother's letter, and Alessa is going to have a severe reaction to the contents of that letter. Those parts of the story all seem pretty okay. If something is wrong, it's Beryl's characterization. And I just have to trust myself to get her right going forward.
Anyway, thanks again to everyone who read the story and offered comments.
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"And remember, I'm pullin' for ya, 'cause we're all in this together." - Red Green
All in all, I really liked this story. You dealt with some really hard issues to deal with, and I think it turned out well. Beryl and Aloise have both been characters I've been watching closely, but I'll admit to being a little surprised by Beryl's romantic feelings. Honestly, I'm still unsure as to whether or not I like it (but I don't dislike it). I had always pegged their relationship to being more like the type shared by close sisters, and given Beryl's relationship with her own sister, that made sense to me. Sexual attraction just kind of makes that feel kind of... Muddied?
That said, I'm still very interested in seeing the direction Beryl and Aloise's characters will go in, even though I see plenty of ways it could go horribly wrong.
As for Alessa, I'll say that the first kiss absolutely felt coerced... From Beryl's perspective.
In Alessa's mind, I think she just viewed herself as simply giving Beryl the extra push to do what she proably already wanted to do anyway. Alessa even tried to give a bit of an out, I think, when she asked if that was what Beryl wanted. But to Beryl, it felt more like what Alessa was saying was "you'll do this if you really want me to open that box of yours". But I still think Alessa doesn't view her actions as wrong, or as a coercion... Which kind of makes me want to see a rewritten version of this exchange from Alessa's point of view now.
The second kiss, meanwhile, ended up being much more personal, as opposed to being obligation, and both parties were 100% willing. All in all, I, at least, really enjoyed how the scene played out.
One more thing I'd like to add is that I really love how there are these three female characters (Beryl, Aloise and Alessa) that have been involved in this arc, all with completely different personalities, but without the variation being taken to an unrealistic, or cartoonish extent. (I'm mostly thinking of My Little Pony, but some live-action movies and TV shows, such as NCIS, also apply.) Magic aside, they all have managed to feel like real people. Even more amazing is how all of them were created by different writers. It really goes to show the talent that the M:EM possesses.
Side Note: Cartoonish isn't always a bad thing. The Duchess, The Liar, Fisco Vane, Gruff (I assume), Raleris and the Dual Walkers are all wonderfully cartoonish. However, it's good for some characters to just feel like real people.
I don't think of Raleris as being cartoonish but I also have a book for a head so.
In fairness Keeper... beebles. I mean, he's definitely more than that, but.... beebles.
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At twilight's end, the shadow's crossed / a new world birthed, the elder lost. Yet on the morn we wake to find / that mem'ry left so far behind. To deafened ears we ask, unseen / "Which is life and which the dream?"
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