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PostPosted: Fri Sep 05, 2014 6:28 am 
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@ Ruwin:

Ruwin, thanks again for reading, and for the thoughtful feedback -- which is very much appreciated, and very much makes sense.

I hope you get yourself a bagel with so much cream cheese on it that it's kind of oozing out through the middle, but the absence of said bagel does not appear to have affected your usual thoughtfulness, in so far as I can tell.

Anyway, I really appreciate the time and depth of thought you put into your comments, so I want to try to do some equivalent thinking before I respond. In the meantime, thanks again, and enjoy said bagel.

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PostPosted: Fri Sep 05, 2014 12:46 pm 
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Oh man so.

Continuing my tradition recently of reading the stuff you guys write while in the worst possible states of mind, I read this late last night three nights ago while developing a splitting headache, and a LOT of it hits... well, honestly almost too close to home given some recent experiences I had?

Like I said in the intro thread, basically this isn't even going to be anything remotely resembling a kind of formalist, disinterested review? And for that I'm sorry and not even sure about the utility of saying it at all and making y'all read it? But I guess I'm just feeling like this is something I need to approach from a more reader response/affective perspective to really work with. So yeah. Sorry in advance for this.

Oh, and thanks to Ruwin for posting too because that kind of helped me sort out some of my own thoughts on this stuff.
Spoiler

...All that said on a more formal note I think maybe you would be well served with just a mention of what Beryl needs help with at the beginning of the story because I read the first few sentences and couldn't for the life of me remember what it was. The beginning at the moment just feels a little abrupt.

I also am unsure of Alessa's line about not having anything Beryl doesn't have, since there's no reason for Alessa to think Beryl is cisgender and given that they're on a plane that in other ways seems far more permissive of queerness I'm not sure it makes sense for Alessa to make that assumption... particularly since, I mean, this is Alessa we're talking about, she's not exactly inexperienced you know? :P

Otherwise I mean I like a lot of what's going on here, it's just not really possible for me to untangle my experience of this piece from my own experiences with... like... screwing up so bad. I mean wow how do you even communicate that badly I just don't know.

So so happy to have my ship partially canonized though @_@ Aloise x Beryl 5ever


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PostPosted: Fri Sep 05, 2014 4:55 pm 
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I'm not going to comment on a lot of stuff in response to this since I'm not sure it's my place to answer the comments, but there are two things that I do want to chime with, with no real commentary about what you take from it.
I guess what I keep coming back to with this, having read through the whole thing twice now and poked at my own feelings on it for a few days is that there's so many ways that this could have gone really, really wrong, in part because of the kind of messed up power dynamics that really favored Alessa and because of Beryl's inexperience.
This is... honestly not untrue of most of the conversations that Alessa has. Her ability to see what's coming up gives her an enormous power advantage in any interaction she has. I'm not saying it's right, but it's part of the reason that I got so bothered by Raven's comment earlier. Consent is important to her because she could very easily do some very terrible things with what she knows.
Quote:
I also am unsure of Alessa's line about not having anything Beryl doesn't have, since there's no reason for Alessa to think Beryl is cisgender and given that they're on a plane that in other ways seems far more permissive of queerness I'm not sure it makes sense for Alessa to make that assumption... particularly since, I mean, this is Alessa we're talking about, she's not exactly inexperienced you know? :P

Alessa tends not to assume when she can see the future. :p

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At twilight's end, the shadow's crossed / a new world birthed, the elder lost.
Yet on the morn we wake to find / that mem'ry left so far behind.
To deafened ears we ask, unseen / "Which is life and which the dream?"


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PostPosted: Fri Sep 05, 2014 5:06 pm 
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.........Fridge Brilliance.

But yeah, that fact about Alessa's power over others is definitely one of the things that I find confounds me when I try to take stock of what's going on. On the one hand she HAS the power, but on the other hand here she doesn't use it.

I think my sort of gut level discomfort has more to do ultimately with Beryl and whether or not she can understand her own mind well enough to know what she wants, basically.


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PostPosted: Fri Sep 05, 2014 6:45 pm 
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@ Keeper --

Keeper, thanks for reading, and for sharing your thoughts. I'm always happy to get feedback -- there is no bad feedback. And you raised some concerns which I really do want to respond to, similar to Ruwin. I take things about sexual coercion and the like very, very seriously, and I want to take the time to offer a good, thoughtful response. I'm really sorry if the story caused any problems in that regard. That was certainly not the intent.

I hate the timing on all this, because I am traveling tomorrow, and I need to get all the liquids and gels out of my luggage so that I don't wind up getting waterboarded at some CIA black site. (I am not a good air traveler, on top of which I am always worried that I will end up committing a felony by bum-rushing the TSA officer who gives Mrs. OL her "optional" pat-down. Or, as I like to call it, the Freedom Fondle!)

Anyway, I'm going to try to post a good response tonight, fatigue and luggage nonsense permitting. Barring that, I'll try to respond tomorrow.

Again, thanks for reading!

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PostPosted: Fri Sep 05, 2014 6:48 pm 
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Hey, don't worry about it! And like I said before, I don't think you need to apologise for writing something that's affecting. I just felt I should share the reaction I had and try to articulate why.


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PostPosted: Fri Sep 05, 2014 6:50 pm 
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Well, spoiler alert! I'm going to have my own TMI moment, too. So we'll balance out. :)

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PostPosted: Fri Sep 05, 2014 6:52 pm 
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Cool :) Let's vomit feelings all over this thread!


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PostPosted: Fri Sep 05, 2014 6:54 pm 
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@ Keeper --

Keeper, thanks for reading, and for sharing your thoughts. I'm always happy to get feedback -- there is no bad feedback. And you raised some concerns which I really do want to respond to, similar to Ruwin. I take things about sexual coercion and the like very, very seriously, and I want to take the time to offer a good, thoughtful response. I'm really sorry if the story caused any problems in that regard. That was certainly not the intent.

I hate the timing on all this, because I am traveling tomorrow, and I need to get all the liquids and gels out of my luggage so that I don't wind up getting waterboarded at some CIA black site. (I am not a good air traveler, on top of which I am always worried that I will end up committing a felony by bum-rushing the TSA officer who gives Mrs. OL her "optional" pat-down. Or, as I like to call it, the Freedom Fondle!)

Anyway, I'm going to try to post a good response tonight, fatigue and luggage nonsense permitting. Barring that, I'll try to respond tomorrow.

Again, thanks for reading!

Okay, so I know this is sad, but reading this post and the several meaningful, thoughtful posts before it leads me to only response, and of course, it's a Simpsons quote:

Mr. Scorpio wrote:
"We don't have bums in our town, Marge, and if we did, they wouldn't rush. They'd be allowed to go at their own pace."


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PostPosted: Fri Sep 05, 2014 10:14 pm 
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.........Fridge Brilliance.
Close the door! The Ice Cream is going south quick! :p
Quote:
But yeah, that fact about Alessa's power over others is definitely one of the things that I find confounds me when I try to take stock of what's going on. On the one hand she HAS the power, but on the other hand here she doesn't use it.

That's,... Alessa would probably KNIFE me for this, but it's because Alessa is a deeply conflicted and complicated person.
I feel like I should explain more about that, but I'm finding myself at a lack of words. It just comes down to the fact that she doesn't see herself as someone who would take advantage of an innocent person. Even some people who have some karma due, if she can, she'll avoid hurting them because it's just something she doesn't want to do. She's capable of some really awful things if forced (and in fairness, that doesn't take much for her to feel cornered for obvious reasons), but in her heart, she doesn't want to hurt anybody.

She'd rather make people happy.

Okay, so I know this is sad, but reading this post and the several meaningful, thoughtful posts before it leads me to only response, and of course, it's a Simpsons quote:

Mr. Scorpio wrote:
"We don't have bums in our town, Marge, and if we did, they wouldn't rush. They'd be allowed to go at their own pace."
In fairness, if you're going to quote the simpsons, that's a good one to quote. That and Cape Feare.

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At twilight's end, the shadow's crossed / a new world birthed, the elder lost.
Yet on the morn we wake to find / that mem'ry left so far behind.
To deafened ears we ask, unseen / "Which is life and which the dream?"


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PostPosted: Fri Sep 05, 2014 11:25 pm 
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Okay, first of all, I want to thank everyone who commented on the story. I've said it before, but it bears saying again -- your feedback is always appreciated, in any shape or form.

Having had a little time to think, what I believe I want to do is to try to talk through some of my process in writing the story, and to explain what I think Beryl's thought processes are. (Keyword here is "think" -- it's always possible that I've got Beryl wrong, and that one of the reasons why feedback is so valuable. I spend a lot of time thinking about Beryl, but that doesn't mean I always understand her correctly. Sometimes other people see things that I don't. That's one of the things which I love so much about this community. :) )

Now, there are two disadvantages associated with this way of doing things. The first is that it's going to be a looooooong response, so I'm going to spoiler block it below for length. I'll apologize in advance, but I care a lot about these characters, and I care a lot about doing right by them. So I'd rather go on for a little bit than try to summarize and risk muddling the point. Second, it means that I may not respond directly to all the questions which Ruwin and Keeper and others raised. But I'd rather just talk through my thinking in general than go point-by-point, because I'm not trying to imply that anyone else shouldn't feel the way they feel, and so I don't want this to come across as a rebuttal, or anything like that.

Finally, I'll try to give everyone a fair warning before the feels get too feely.

It's more complicated than I ever intended...

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PostPosted: Sat Sep 06, 2014 9:19 pm 
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Barinellos wrote:
In fairness, if you're going to quote the simpsons, that's a good one to quote. That and Cape Feare.

"Surely there's no harm in laying in the middle of a public street."

OrcishLibrarian wrote:
A lot of really interesting things.


Okay, so I have a few things to say about this piece in specific response to some of the points brought up by Ruwin, Keeper and Orcish, but I feel I need to preface it a little. First of all, I do not have the emotional connection/reaction to this that others have, so my reactions here are going to be pretty dispassionate and purely from my own point of view (which they usually are). I of course do not mean to offend or upset anyone, nor to in any way devalue your personal experiences or connections to these characters. Those are all incredibly valid, and none of us should lose sight of that.

Spoilering for length:

Spoiler


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PostPosted: Sat Sep 06, 2014 10:19 pm 
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I thiiiink I read things along the lines that Raven's suggesting basically, yeah. Though I can see your reading of and understanding of it as well, OL. Thanks for sharing that perspective and story.


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PostPosted: Sat Sep 06, 2014 11:12 pm 
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@ Raven --

Thanks for sharing those thoughts, Raven. I'm just going to offer some quick thoughts of my own in response, and then I do want to think about this all some more.

I'm rereading what I posted last night, and I think I did a fuzzy job of articulating myself in some places, and that you've put your finger on a couple of them.

I really don't want you, Orcish, to assume I think you did something wrong or poorly here. I think (hope) you're aware of how much I think of you as a writer. But I'll be honest; this story didn't read this way to me personally. Again, maybe it's my dislike of Alessa's personality, but Alessa's initial demand for a kiss did not come across to me as innocent or as any attempt to help Beryl. I think she was trying to make Beryl uncomfortable. Alessa is very good at reading people, whether she's using her future sight to help her or not. She could tell from the very beginning that Beryl was uncomfortable there, and personally, I think Alessa thought Beryl was being a prude based on Beryl's reaction to Alessa's nudity and the state of the shop. I think Alessa wanted to see if this uptight woman (as she perceived her) would do something she was uncomfortable doing to get the chest open. We know from Alessa's reaction to the first kiss that Alessa did not expect Beryl's inexperience, so I read her initial demand as coercion. Maybe it's not all that insidious a coercion, admittedly, but she knew she was in a position of power (Beryl needed her to open the chest) and she used that to force Beryl to do something she didn't seem to want to do.

I agree that, initially, Alessa is trying to put Beryl in a situation which she thinks may make Beryl uncomfortable, because she wants to see how Beryl reacts. Like you said, I think she picks on up Beryl's initial awkwardness, and she wants to see whether that awkwardness is stemming from heteronormativeness (which spell check tells me is not a word, but I guess I don't know what the correct word would be?), or whether it's something else. I think Alessa wants to see what Beryl would do. I guess the distinction I was trying to make is that I don't think Alessa would ever have forced Beryl to do something that Beryl didn't want to do. I think Alessa likes to probe, and likes to test boundaries. Which, due to the power imbalance which people have pointed out here, may be problematic?

But I don't think Alessa would ever force someone to do something they didn't want to do.

But, and maybe I'm projecting here, I think with where she's at in her life, she would feel guilty for not sharing that with Aloise first, even if she discovers that Aloise is not interested.

No, I don't think you're projecting. I think the same thing. :(

* * *

Actually, I think I need to take some time to try to process all of this. I'm not totally sure how I feel about things at the moment.

On the one hand, I really do like this story. I really do.

On the other hand, I'm finding myself troubled by some of the reactions people are having. Really troubled.

Like I said before, this story feels very important to me. And, as such, I want to get it right. I really, really want to get it right.

Not good. Not mostly right. Not just in the Archive.

Right.

I care about Beryl. I care about Beryl probably an unhealthy amount, but that is what it is. I know that she's a fictional character, but she matters to me, and I feel like I have an obligation to her. It's important to me that I get her right.

I don't know if I have this story right. I might, but I don't know. And, if it isn't right, I honestly don't know what I would need to do to fix it.

I need to take some time to think it all over. I think I'm too close to it right now. I'm having a really hard time thinking about this clearly at present.

With that being said, I really hope that people will continue to share any thoughts or comments that they may have, because they are helpful. They give me food for thought.

(And, for the record, I want to be *crystal* clear that any problems which may exist in this story are problems of my making, and no one else's.)

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PostPosted: Sat Sep 06, 2014 11:37 pm 
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(And, for the record, I want to be *crystal* clear that any problems which may exist in this story are problems of my making, and no one else's.)

Glad I could help, but for the record, I don't think that's necessarily true. After all, by our own admission, Ruwin, Keeper and I all came to this with a different set of things we were focusing on, whether it's a character they made, a personal experience, or pre-existing conceptions of characters you didn't even create. What can I say, Reader-Response theory is a thing.

I'm not saying you did this story right, and I'm not saying you did it wrong. But I will say that this story has created some very thoughtful and interesting discussion, and that's a good thing.


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PostPosted: Sun Sep 07, 2014 1:31 pm 
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(And, for the record, I want to be *crystal* clear that any problems which may exist in this story are problems of my making, and no one else's.)

Glad I could help, but for the record, I don't think that's necessarily true. After all, by our own admission, Ruwin, Keeper and I all came to this with a different set of things we were focusing on, whether it's a character they made, a personal experience, or pre-existing conceptions of characters you didn't even create. What can I say, Reader-Response theory is a thing.

I'm not saying you did this story right, and I'm not saying you did it wrong. But I will say that this story has created some very thoughtful and interesting discussion, and that's a good thing.

Oh, I totally get that everyone comes to this story -- or any story, for that matter -- from a different perspective. But sometimes you all can see things which I don't see. Heck, sometimes I can see things which I don't see, provided you put enough time between the two halves of that sentence.

Anyway, having had the night to sleep on it, I think I've figured out what I need to do.

For the time being, I just need to let this story sit. Like I said, I'm too close to it right now. There is a part of my brain which isn't quite able to fully engage with some of the observations people have made, because, depending on how I end up feeling about them, that might mean having to do some pretty serious re-writing. And, if I'm being completely honest with myself, I just don't have the mental fortitude to deal with that prospect right now.

So, what I'm going to do for the time being, I think, is to just let this piece sit for a while. Then, maybe a month down the line or something, I'll try to take another good, hard look at it. And, if I realize that I'm doing violence to Beryl, I will fix it. Alternatively, if I feel like I've got her correct, then I'll feel more confident about that judgment than I would if I made it now.

The tricky bit is that I have a lot more Beryl stories I want to tell. So I'm just going to try to keep writing forward in the meantime. If I decide I need to make changes here, I'll edit the subsequent stories to bring them in to alignment, if that turns out to be necessary.

I'm hoping it won't, since I think the big plot beats in this story are correct. Beryl is going to meet Alessa, Alessa is going to help Beryl open the box, Beryl is going to read her mother's letter, and Alessa is going to have a severe reaction to the contents of that letter. Those parts of the story all seem pretty okay. If something is wrong, it's Beryl's characterization. And I just have to trust myself to get her right going forward.

Anyway, thanks again to everyone who read the story and offered comments.

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PostPosted: Sun Sep 07, 2014 2:56 pm 
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All in all, I really liked this story. You dealt with some really hard issues to deal with, and I think it turned out well.
Beryl and Aloise have both been characters I've been watching closely, but I'll admit to being a little surprised by Beryl's romantic feelings. Honestly, I'm still unsure as to whether or not I like it (but I don't dislike it). I had always pegged their relationship to being more like the type shared by close sisters, and given Beryl's relationship with her own sister, that made sense to me. Sexual attraction just kind of makes that feel kind of... Muddied?

That said, I'm still very interested in seeing the direction Beryl and Aloise's characters will go in, even though I see plenty of ways it could go horribly wrong.

As for Alessa, I'll say that the first kiss absolutely felt coerced... From Beryl's perspective.

In Alessa's mind, I think she just viewed herself as simply giving Beryl the extra push to do what she proably already wanted to do anyway. Alessa even tried to give a bit of an out, I think, when she asked if that was what Beryl wanted. But to Beryl, it felt more like what Alessa was saying was "you'll do this if you really want me to open that box of yours". But I still think Alessa doesn't view her actions as wrong, or as a coercion... Which kind of makes me want to see a rewritten version of this exchange from Alessa's point of view now.

The second kiss, meanwhile, ended up being much more personal, as opposed to being obligation, and both parties were 100% willing. All in all, I, at least, really enjoyed how the scene played out.

One more thing I'd like to add is that I really love how there are these three female characters (Beryl, Aloise and Alessa) that have been involved in this arc, all with completely different personalities, but without the variation being taken to an unrealistic, or cartoonish extent. (I'm mostly thinking of My Little Pony, but some live-action movies and TV shows, such as NCIS, also apply.) Magic aside, they all have managed to feel like real people. Even more amazing is how all of them were created by different writers. It really goes to show the talent that the M:EM possesses.

Side Note: Cartoonish isn't always a bad thing. The Duchess, The Liar, Fisco Vane, Gruff (I assume), Raleris and the Dual Walkers are all wonderfully cartoonish. However, it's good for some characters to just feel like real people.

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PostPosted: Sun Sep 07, 2014 3:10 pm 
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I don't think of Raleris as being cartoonish but I also have a book for a head so.


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PostPosted: Sun Sep 07, 2014 3:14 pm 
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I don't think of Raleris as being cartoonish but I also have a book for a head so.

In fairness Keeper... beebles.
I mean, he's definitely more than that, but.... beebles.

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At twilight's end, the shadow's crossed / a new world birthed, the elder lost.
Yet on the morn we wake to find / that mem'ry left so far behind.
To deafened ears we ask, unseen / "Which is life and which the dream?"


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PostPosted: Sun Sep 07, 2014 3:34 pm 
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This is true >_<


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