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 Post subject: Re: Mature Content
PostPosted: Thu Oct 03, 2013 7:31 pm 
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Let me pose a hypothetical: If I'm writing a story wherein one of the characters is a female nudist, but apart from mentioning that she is naked, I don't go into describing...anything, is that something people would consider "mature content?"


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 Post subject: Re: Mature Content
PostPosted: Thu Oct 03, 2013 7:44 pm 
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RavenoftheBlack wrote:
Let me pose a hypothetical: If I'm writing a story wherein one of the characters is a female nudist, but apart from mentioning that she is naked, I don't go into describing...anything, is that something people would consider "mature content?"

Nope. Non-visual mediums are funny like that.

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 Post subject: Re: Mature Content
PostPosted: Thu Oct 03, 2013 8:14 pm 
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I can't decide if that would be interesting or gimmicky... That's actually a much greater concern for me than the acceptability.

Now, of course, if it comes time for me to illustrate the story, it might get tricky, but I think you can do it tastefully rather than exploitatively. Not like the nude has never appeared in art before.


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 Post subject: Re: Mature Content
PostPosted: Thu Oct 03, 2013 8:30 pm 
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Well, we'll know for sure relatively soon. If I'm really lucky, I'll have the story done tomorrow, but I shouldn't have any trouble finishing it by Saturday.


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 Post subject: Re: Mature Content
PostPosted: Thu Oct 03, 2013 8:49 pm 
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Wait this is seriously a thing that you're making happen?


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 Post subject: Re: Mature Content
PostPosted: Thu Oct 03, 2013 9:01 pm 
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Yeah, sadly I often use the word "hypothetical" in admittedly deceitful ways. I am remorseful...

:(


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 Post subject: Re: Mature Content
PostPosted: Thu Oct 03, 2013 9:59 pm 
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Since I got name dropped, I suppose I should weigh in.

First, are we just equating mature with graphic sex and violence? Or do we allow it to include topics such as rape, torture, abuse and so on?

Personally, I am of the opinion that we should welcome mature content, but not encourage it. There is a place for sexuality and violence within the greater M:EM, and when it does occur, if done well, then it should be accepted without a problem. Likewise, if done poorly but appropriately we should offer advice on how to do it better. However, recalling the previous discussion on the matter, I do not think that the M:EM(NSFW) should become a portion of the M:EM. While it is still just the one story at the moment, it should remain a different entity to allow for things like the Sorin/Avacyn or Bolas/Tezzeret fics while trying to maintain the same literary standards as the rest of the M:EM project, as well as those fics that are just blatantly porn. If its acceptable to post such things here, then fine, otherwise I'm more than happy to keep it a separate, Tumblr-only project.


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 Post subject: Re: Mature Content
PostPosted: Thu Oct 03, 2013 10:15 pm 
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I'd be happy to read more on your separate, Tumblr-only project, Deck... ;)

I think the argument of canonicity vs noncanonicity makes sense, though, as a rationale for keeping the two separate. You can take advantage of that freedom in a way that we can't--or at least in a way that we never really intended to at the beginning.


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 Post subject: Re: Mature Content
PostPosted: Thu Oct 03, 2013 10:24 pm 
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KeeperofManyNames wrote:
I'd be happy to read more on your separate, Tumblr-only project, Deck... ;)

I think the argument of canonicity vs noncanonicity makes sense, though, as a rationale for keeping the two separate. You can take advantage of that freedom in a way that we can't--or at least in a way that we never really intended to at the beginning.

I'm not against drawing up an intimate moment of genuine affection between Lili and Jace.

... Just saying.

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 Post subject: Re: Mature Content
PostPosted: Thu Oct 03, 2013 10:39 pm 
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And I'm not against storing it to my hard drive along with the other JacexLiliana pictures I have >_> <_< >_>


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 Post subject: Re: Mature Content
PostPosted: Thu Oct 03, 2013 11:06 pm 
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KeeperofManyNames wrote:
I can't decide if that would be interesting or gimmicky... That's actually a much greater concern for me than the acceptability.

Now, of course, if it comes time for me to illustrate the story, it might get tricky, but I think you can do it tastefully rather than exploitatively. Not like the nude has never appeared in art before.

Honestly, the merfolk that I'd concepted a while ago was going to be a nudist, but that's mostly because... well, clothes don't make a lot of sense to her. Different species taboos and morals and all.
KeeperofManyNames wrote:
And I'm not against storing it to my hard drive along with the other JacexLiliana pictures I have >_> <_< >_>


I actually meant as a story. To do a picture right would be a lot more work than I'd be willing to do to make it good.

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 Post subject: Re: Mature Content
PostPosted: Fri Oct 04, 2013 3:11 am 
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@Tevish: As it stands, forum rules tell us to stay PG-13. As creators, that's inherently limiting and wouldn't allow you to properly write, say, Phyrexians.

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 Post subject: Re: Mature Content
PostPosted: Fri Oct 04, 2013 7:08 am 
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This is the first real response I got.

GobO_Fire wrote:
I don't know that it's different rules. We've already said a whole lot of mature content is already OK for the boards - it's one of the biggest reasons the whole, dragging out discussion about a Mature Forum is a waste of time.

Out-and-out porn, obviously, is no good. but here's one of my posts from that thread on Meta:

Quote:
The CoC allows politics ("should pot be legal?" certainly has a big element of politics to it) and religion. Explicitly. It doesn't say those topics are forbidden. It says they'll be watched closely.

I have no problem with a "relationship advice" thread. I have no problem with a thread that seriously asks, "My GF and I want to invite her bestie to join us. How do we do it without her hating us?" I have no problem with a Confessional.

I have no problem with a discussion in the D&D section about how to use prostitution within the game - from how much it should charge to how to sucker the PCs into it to how to use enchantment spells to coerce others into that line of work. I don't have an issue with a Vampire: the Masquerade thread asking how a player's vampire can seduce some normal chick named Bella. I don't have an issue with somebody writing up their own rules about drug use - addition, withdrawl, what happens while high, etc - and asking for feedback.

Any and all of those are OK. The topic isn't the deciding content. The contents of the posts within the topic is going to determine what we do with a thread, or with an individual post in a thread.

Like everything else, we'll monitor it. If we need to request a tag on the thread title so folks know to stay away, we'll cross that bridge when we get there. And if we find we need a "mature" section - either for in gaming stuff, creative, or off-topic stuff - we'll also cross that bridge when we get there.

Stay within the CoC and just about anything is OK. (note: this is not intended as a challenge for you to go find what is and isn't OK. ;) )


(source link)

We've already said there are some pretty wide guidelines, with a whole lot of stuff that would be considered "Mature" in the "OK to talk about" list. And... I actually am willing to have some slight differences in some places than others. Specifically, I'm quite willing to give creative threads a bit more leeway to allow somebody to express themselves.

So while "Chandra/Jace" doesn't mean a darn thing to me, I'll go ahead and say I'm OK with mature content, within these guidelines:

- No explicit nudity in art (to use a bad example: playboy? Maybe OK. Hustler? Not a chance. More to the point, if it's art that happens to contain nudity, I'm OK with it - inside a spoiler and clearly labelled NSFW. If it's nakedness just to be nakedness, then I'm probably not OK with it.)

- Fiction shouldn't have graphic descriptions of penetration. Actually, strike that. Fiction shouldn't have any descriptions of penetration. If a writer can't get across the fact that two people are having sex without describing how the dude is plunging in and out, he/she is a bad writer.

- Similar to the line for sex, are the lines for gore and violence. Pictures do not need to show a dude ripping somebody's heart out of their chest while blood splatters everywhere; stories don't need a three page description of a torture scene.

- Finally, for my standards... anything that include coercion - anything that can be viewed as rape - I would look at with a much closer eye. And such items should have a "trigger warning" and be inside a spoiler.

Now, all that said, this is just my opinions. If Bun is against it, then it's out - she's da boss. If Bun is OK but the majority of the mod crew are against it, I would have to re-think my position.

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 Post subject: Re: Mature Content
PostPosted: Fri Oct 04, 2013 12:07 pm 
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I agree with a lot of what has been said. It is quite possible to communicate these things without getting graphic, and there is very seldom inherent value in being graphic. But I also agree that it doesn't mean we should dismiss and/or ban anyone who writes graphic mature content. We are here to help each other improve as content creators, so we should give everyone a chance to hear our advice. Then, if they continue to create low-quality smut, then we ban them.

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 Post subject: Re: Mature Content
PostPosted: Fri Oct 04, 2013 12:50 pm 
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That's a little tighter than I would like, frankly, but it's manageable.

The only particularly silly thing is the "no art with dudes getting their hearts ripped out" thing because... well... I mean... Macabre Waltz, Disembowel, Mutilate... uh, Curse of the Pierced Heart... Like, I get his point, I suppose, but it's a very poor articulation of said point. It's not even that I want a lot of violence. I'd prefer explicit sex to explicit violence. But like... it doesn't do to pretend that the source material we're working from is squeaky clean and never prone to fits of graphic, disturbing violence.


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