Well, admittedly, this is proving to be a pretty big challenge for all of us. We're really approaching this thing from an odd angle, and I really don't think any of us have a full grasp on how these characters should function. Partly, I think it's because most characters are in part a byproduct of their environments and their experiences, but we're trying to formulate five fully realized characters who have neither (in the beginning).

The other problem is that we are setting a very strict set of criteria for ourselves here that ultimately might not really work. We want gods representing binary, intangible concepts that can exist more or less without any (or much) external stimuli, we need five of them, and we need them to fit into enemy pairings on Magic's color wheel. That's...a lot to do all at once. I mean, I think it's coming along pretty decently. But if we keep trying to force things that none of us are really "getting," it might be because something is wrong with our methodology. Just something to think about.

That being said, I kind of like where Keeper was going with the Gnostic angle (which I freely admit I know little about) and Barinellos, unless you're really dead-set against it, I suggest he pursue it, although I'm going to need it explained to me, most likely!

Oh, yeah, let me know if the stuff I was saying needs more clarification. I forget that not everyone has read Gnostic stuff. >_< I've been just like... embedded in it for so long that it's easy to lose track of the fact that it's actually kind of weird and obscure?

I think it's that first criteria Raven mentioned that I'm having trouble with. I'm just not quite able to wrap my head around how any intangible concept can exist without external stimuli. Like... can there be a concept of fate prior to a universe with entities within it? Can there be a concept of time? What differentiates those from will? Or from The World?

Like... it's just forcing me to bend my mind in a direction that I don't think my mind was made to bend, if that makes sense. I can't visualize concepts separate from their material implementations.

I have to agree with this. Then again, that's taking how our world works. There must be a cause before an effect. A universe before a concept. At least in most cases anyway.

Anything other than that is very foreign indeed. But hey, that's why it's interesting.

It's my own fault for approaching it from this angle, but it's a very true statement.
I think I'll need to review what Raven said too, because I'm sure he had points that I want to address too, but it is a very hard thing to think in terms of such absolute abstraction cascading into consequence.

Our frame of reference, as Jivan said, is just very unaccustomed to it.

Of course, none of that means we can't do it. It's just going to take a lot of thought and discussion.

Exactly this. In fact it's more reason to do it.

If I may ask Barin, could you give a a quick breakdown of exactly what you're looking for. I gave a thought on the last page but I may have missed the point?

Well, the idea is that the echoes of a dead world gave rise to beings who are as lost in their existence as a mortal would be, but with the amount of power they have, they basically shape themselves in different ways to the same stimuli, and in the process of coming to understand the fundamental aspects of what came before, they've sort of... crystallized their own identities and as a result create a world refracted through their abstract thought processes and half-memories. They have memories and no context, so they're kind of trying to create the context for themselves.

If any of that makes sense. It's ultimately about self-realization, at least in this stage of design. Which is meta as **** given how much trouble we're having.

So, I think I managed to come up with a name for this and I think, particularly you, Keeper, it is both fitting, amusing, and slightly meta.

How does everyone feel about the name:
Empyrean?

I like the name! I'm still stuck on where to go from here.

Like, is there maybe a different way of approaching this problem? Do they all have exactly the same information or do they have different bits of information?

They have the same basic information, but the actual collection of memories or echoes that speak to them are different, as well as different ways of interpreting what they have, which plays into stage 2, which we might just need to go ahead and plunge into.

Okay, so going forward, this is, conceptually, what we're working with, right?
Order/Chaos: Time
Life/Death: Fate
Substance/Void:*
One/All: The World**


*For the record, I consider Denial and Indulgence to be within this god's portfolio. It's the application of that which is full and those that are empty. That which is, and that which is not... though I could use a description of what that domain would be.
**I'm still kind of bummed that I could never make the Civilization and Wilderness split work with Thought and Instinct. I really liked the idea that the world as a whole was composed of more than Nature. Still, you know what they say about not fighting expectations, and this is a key part of that.

All in all, this means that we still need U/R to complete the set. If we can just get that out, we can move to Phase 2.

I know this is completely going against the high conceptual theme of the others, so I'm just throwing this out there to possibly get some thoughts brewing. What if we play up some kind of angle between heat and cold? I know it's a bit obvious, a bit on the nose, but there might be a way to twist that into something we can use.

Honestly, I'd considered Heaven and Earth for it, but yeah, the problem is the high concept issue.
We're ALWAYS getting hung on at least one thing, yeah?

What about what heat and cold literally is:

Movement vs Stillness?

No idea what that adds up to though.

You know, I can kinda dig that. It's extremely Zen, which says volumes.

Finding the domain over that will be a bit awkward, but I'm sure we can come up with something.

Vindicated!

So, the last thing to do to get everything of this sorted out now is to hammer out the domains for the B/W and U/R...
Umm... any suggestions given what we're working with?

Yeah it's the domain that'll give us trouble there, I fear.

Also, I'm not actually sure which color should get which thing. I mean... there's movements for either. On the surface it seems obviously that it should be movement/stillness but if you think about the actual lands represented, the reverse seems more fitting--the stillness of the mountains vs the fickle sea!

That's pretty interesting. Although it may be a contradiction we can play with when we get to the avatars and the worldbuilding. I kind of like the idea of a Still Sea as a sacred place for the Avatar of Stillness, and the Moving Mountain as it's antipodal locale.

I enjoy alliteration way too much...

Yeah, even though Keeper has a very good point about the source of the mana, it's the mana and associated characteristics which ultimately match what we're trying to do. Aside from that, it's another example of fighting expectations and embracing audience interpretation.

Though it is tempting to subvert that. Still, we've had such trouble even getting to this point that we might want to take the easy path on it.